Your thoughts on BING? [Archive]

KM-Tiger

27th August 2009, 20:30

Just tried it for the first time.

Trying to look like Google is a bit dumb really, Google are much better at it!

But there is room for competition by a search engine that was *different*. Two things that Google do badly at present are:

Including too much directory/price comparison dross when I'm searching to buy something.
For specific technical information putting stuff that is out of date on page one.

The second point is a challenge as some old documents are still authoritative, so it's not as simple as just eliminating the old ones.

Alcsl

27th August 2009, 21:40

We've tried microsoft adcenter for ppc ads via bing and didn't get much out of it - there simply isn't enough traffic going through it.

Even when we tried our hardest to spend our budget, we still couldn't manage to spend even a quarter of it compared to our google adwords equiv daily budget!

It's alright to have as an afterthought, but we wouldn't solely rely on it nor use it as my preferred search engine.

Al

dots and spots Jeff

27th August 2009, 22:16

snvinfotech

28th August 2009, 05:42

Bing is no where in the race the only thing which can beat Google is Twitter :)

fisicx

28th August 2009, 06:59

I've just done a twitter search and seen some interesting and thoughtful twits.

<edit>Sorry, I meant to say ...some twits that are about as useful as chocolate fire guard</edit>.

It's a bit like the suggestion the other day that 'youtube' was the second biggest search engine. Durrr.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 08:13

I mentioned in this thread why I find the twitter search useful and why I think real-time search will become more important in the future:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=113842

Twitter search will never replace Google (at least in its current form) but it can be used very effectively to supplement it.

As with all thing Twitter the web interface is not the most efficient way of searching for things.

My favourite Twitter Client is Tweetdeck which is always running minimised whenever I am at one of my PCs

If I am researching something lets for example say "Quickbooks" vs "Kashflow" I will open two search columns: one for "Quickbooks" and one for "Kashflow".

After reading the initial results I minimise Tweetdeck and carry on with my work.

From then on pop-up notifications will appear whenever anyone makes a 'tweets' containing these terms.

The results can be very interesting and will be very useful in making a decision.

Many business owners understand that people are using the internet this way and use Twitter as a very effective marketing tool.

Our own Duane Jackson for example (owner of Kashflow) who regularly 'tweets' about Kashflow updates and the SaaS movement as a whole.

This is just one example of how, IMO, the real-time search / social media scene is starting to eat into Google's virtual [search] monopoly.

Google isn't ignoring this but this, and the other thread, has surprised me how real-time search is being written of by many people who I otherwise consider 'experts' on this forum.

Regards

Dotty

fisicx

28th August 2009, 08:39

But that's not really using twitter as a search engine. If I wanted to book a flight or buy a tin of beans or find a plumber then twitter isn't much use. I've just searched for a dvd I want to buy and whilst there were some references to the film most of the tweets were of the lol ur g8 variety.

And suppose twitter search does become popular, it would soon fill up with self promo spam.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 08:54

But that's not really using twitter as a search engine...

Of Course it is that's real-time search! :|

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ei=GZmXSqnFGMWZjAfyxbifBQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=real-time+search&spell=1

"For me, “real time search” means looking through material that literally is published in real time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_web

"Real-time web is the concept of searching for and finding information online as it is produced"

People are spending more and more time online with social media sites.

People share more and more information with their 'networks'

People are more frequently turning to their social networking sites for the FIRST call for information.

As I said it's early days and it cannot replace Google but it can supplement this.

Real-Time search is going to be very significant in the future and all the major players know this.

Regards

Dotty

fisicx

28th August 2009, 09:06

I agree if you are looking for real time information then social media can be usful. But how is this going to help me find the best deal for a tin of beans or the local farmers market? If I want to know the latest news about some major event then a news feed would be far more objective than the opinions of the twitterers.

Try using twitter to find a specific product or service. Even the 'kashflow' search isn't really that helpful for someone who want's to know more about the product.

I'm not saying that twitter search is completly worthless but as oasis suggested, from a commercial viewpoint it is not that useful a tool.

I also consider the information sharing that people do using social networking is very limited. Whilst there may be some mileage in asking your mates for the best cafe in Darlington or a reccomendation for a B&B in Penzance I'm not so sure I would want to rely on them if I was going to spend £10K on an extension.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 09:19

The way I see it:

Google has the best algorithm and the biggest infrastructure - it has the the best non-real time results

Twitter has the best "Real-Time" network - it has the best real-time results

Facebook has the best "Social" network and [currently] has the widest reach - it connects you to the people you know and trust the most

The perfect search engine IMO will combine the best of all three. All three above know this and are currently trying to move into each others territories.

Google is clearly currently BY FAR likely to give you the information you want to need for most queries but they cannot afford to stand still.

Regards

Dotty

DuaneJackson

28th August 2009, 09:20

I think people are missing the point re Twitter search. I don't think it's a replacement for google, but as was said above - it supplements it.

You want to find accounting software? Use google.
Want more info on KAshFlow? Go to the KashFlow site
Want to know what others are saying about KashFlow? Search Twitter

Different tools for different purposes

real-time search is being written of by many people who I otherwise consider 'experts' on this forum.

I've noticed that too. Twitter as a whole is being dismissed by people who I'd have thought would appreciate what it is/does.

From a purely commerical perspective, it's the #2 referer of traffic to the KashFlow site, second only to Google.

Eagle

28th August 2009, 09:24

Google has the best algorithm
Sorry, from whos perspective?

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 09:26

...Want to know what others are saying about KashFlow? Search Twitter...

That hit the nail on the head and is the point that many people seem to be missing.

They also seem to be missing the point that business owners like yourselves can use this as a very good communication and PR tool.

Regards

Dotty

fisicx

28th August 2009, 09:31

I agree entirely but it really depends on your business sector and the sort of customers you have.

Because kashflow is saas twitter works well for you, it is immediate feedback on suggestions, ideas, issues and problems. But if you were selling generator winding equipment I suspect the appeal of twitter to middle managers would be limited.

The biggest problem with twitter is seperating the nuggets of gold from all the dross. Where there is a specific product or service being discussed then there will be more gold but search for a celeb and it's just garbage.

Yes it can be a PR tool but that doesn't make is a search engine.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 09:34

Sorry, from whos perspective?

Probably not the end user! ;)

I don't actually think it's THAT great. That quote was meant in the context of Google, Facebook or Twitter with regards to search as a whole (i.e not just real-time).

Regards

Dotty

eventdomain

28th August 2009, 09:38

Some say that twitter search:

http://search.twitter.com/

is the next big thing in search engines.

Its different enough from google to make it worthwhile, unlike bing which just appears to be a clone.

Twitter is a blog, a diary of people's thoughts/activities - it's not a search engine.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 09:40

...But if you were selling generator winding equipment I suspect the appeal of twitter to middle managers would be limited...

You could go back 15 years and replace the word "twitter" in that sentence with "the web"... ;)

Again what suprises me is that you and some of the other people whose opions I respect seem to think that people will still be using the internet in the same way for the next 15 years.

Regards

Dotty

dots and spots Jeff

28th August 2009, 09:50

I seem to have opened a can of worms!

Twitter search is not a replacement for Google, but Bing is trying to be. At the moment I'm not interested in Bing as Google delivers what I want. (I should point out that I'm writting as a searcher, not someone seeking to be found.)

What Twitter search offers me is something different to google, so its worth my while using it. For example, last Sunday I twitter searched 'ashes' as I wanted to read what people were saying about that glorious victory - google would have delivered a collection of worthy and established opinion, Twitter told me what the man on the street was saying as the game unfolded.

This, I think, is the difference between the two. The two compliment each other, rather than compete with each other. Yes Twitter produces an awful lot of junk, but to be honest, so does google.

DuaneJackson

28th August 2009, 09:56

The biggest problem with twitter is seperating the nuggets of gold from all the dross. Where there is a specific product or service being discussed then there will be more gold but search for a celeb and it's just garbage.

Is that from personal experience or are you regurgitating something you've read elsewhere?

The "it's all celebs, spam and dross" is the biggest myth about Twitter. See Monetising Twtitter and Dealing with the Noise (http://blog.kashflow.com/2009/08/25/twitter-noise/) and the comments from Alex van Someren. It's narrowcasting - tune in to QVC, you get QVC. Tune into CNN, you get CNN.

fisicx

28th August 2009, 09:58

You could go back 15 years and replace the word "twitter" in that sentence with "the web"...
Yes but the thrust of your earlier post was the real-time search results.

Would you use twitter to find out where to buy a book? You might as suggested use it to get opinions of how good the book was but not where to buy it. And does it really matter if the book information was real time or not. If I want to find out where to get a copy of 'passport to pimlico' then twitter is of no use at all. Even the tweets on Jaycee Lee Dugard aren't much help.

I can remember newsgroups, usergroups and webrings, this was twitter before the technology. People have been sharing information since day one of the internet so what is happening with social networking is nothing new, only the means by which is applied.

Twitter and facebook et al are great for sharing information and doing a bit of PR and marketing. Got no problem with this but it's not going to be the next thing in search engines.

This is the only point I'm trying to make.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 10:12

Yes but the thrust of your earlier post was the real-time search results...

No my "thrust" was:

"it's not only 'brain dead morons' who use twitter search and I think real-time search will become more important in the future.

...it's not going to be the next thing in search engines...

I disagree

Real-Time search IS the next big thing.

As I and others have said, It's not going to replace existing search technology but supplement it.

As I have also said, Google knows this and is not going to stand still.

Regards

Dotty

fisicx

28th August 2009, 10:15

Is that from personal experience or are you regurgitating something you've read elsewhere?
Personal experience. There is gold and your tweet threads are good but search twitter for any current newstory and there is nothing there you can't get using a mainstrean search engine. Move off the beaten track and search for a general product and it's either self promo or just daft statments.

If twitter works for you then thet's great. But my generating winding tool company is in a niche market and a tweet about the new 16swg copper wire varnishing machine isn't going to set the generator world on fire.

fisicx

28th August 2009, 10:23

Real-Time search IS the next big thing.
Only for those subjects for which real time is an issue.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 10:40

Only for those subjects for which real time is an issue.

Obviously some subjects are better suited to Real-Time than others.

As Twitter or Twitter-like micro-blogging becomes more mainstream more 'subjects' will be talked about.

For instance I often follow people tweeting from conferences etc.

Suppose there was a trade fair for generator manufacturing companies:

People attending might tweet information that was useful to you. Even if you don't want to follow them you might want to tweet during the conference about the latest update to your machine.

If you used the hashtag for the conference you would be guaranteed to reach a lot of [potentially influential] people in your field.

If your tweet was interesting enough these people might then go on to retweet it to many other [potentially influential] people etc.

Regards

Dotty

eventdomain

28th August 2009, 10:48

A question - if another engine had the branding that Google has, would it be where Google currently is?

In other words is Google that great, personally I don't think so, as the number of bad searches I get is astounding, especially when I want that needle in the haystack....

Bing, has a long way to go to even match Google's offering, never mind bettering it. Okay, something else to consider - if I want to know how to fix my PC, would I go to Google or Bing to find this info? Nope, I woud go to a vertical engine like pcguide.com or howstuffworks etc, same as if I shop online, thus most go straight to Amazon etc etc thus totally bypassing major search engines in favour of vertical resources.

This reduces the key search to just one search to find the vertical element, once found the user bookmarks said site, never to repeat the search for that element/need as the niche site is firmly in their minds for future use.

The web niche sites will eventually reach the point far beyond Google, Bing, MSN etc, and each niche site will be an all-purpose library of info and services to that industry. There will be no need for General search once that happens, and it will happen.

fisicx

28th August 2009, 10:49

As Twitter or Twitter-like micro-blogging becomes more mainstream more 'subjects' will be talked about.
Good points and I agree there is a lot of potential thein lies the problem. Suppose everyone selling houses tweeted about the latest listings, there would be so much information it wouldn't be possible to keep up. When the Ashes final was being played the number of tweets was phenominal but again very difficult to follow unless you chose one thread and followed. If google feeds tweets (as it would like to) then there will be a huge surge in marketing tweets which may well be self defeating as again the gold gets lost in the dross.

BTW, do you tweet? If so how much converting traffic has it brought?

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 11:14

...BTW, do you tweet? If so how much converting traffic has it brought?

I occasionally tweet but I don't use it for marketing so no it hasn't brought any converting traffic:

http://twitter.com/DotNetWebs

The way I mainly [currently] use Twitter is to keep in touch / up to date with people who are doing the same sort of coding as me.

As you can see me participation is minimal but I the information I receive from the people I follow and the results of 'live' search columns have lead me to form my opinions.

Regards

Dotty

ps just took a look at your signature link - how come you haven't got Horsham listed in your Sussex directory!

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 11:22

...Okay, something else to consider - if I want to know how to fix my PC, would I go to Google or Bing to find this info? Nope, I woud go to a vertical engine like pcguide.com or howstuffworks etc, same as if I shop online, thus most go straight to Amazon etc etc thus totally bypassing major search engines in favour of vertical resources.

This reduces the key search to just one search to find the vertical element, once found the user bookmarks said site, never to repeat the search for that element/need as the niche site is firmly in their minds for future use.

The web niche sites will eventually reach the point far beyond Google, Bing, MSN etc, and each niche site will be an all-purpose library of info and services to that industry. There will be no need for General search once that happens, and it will happen.

An excellent post.

I had a big debate with Ling (before she got banned!) about how our ultimate goal is to be the first port of call for information about out town:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=86955

I agree that as the web continues to grow people will find more and more 'vertical resources' and use them BEFORE resorting to the major search engines.

Regards

Dotty

fisicx

28th August 2009, 11:25

ps just took a look at your signature link - how come you haven't got Horsham listed in your Sussex directory!
I thought I'd added you already! Will get it sorted.

DotNetWebs

28th August 2009, 12:00

I thought I'd added you already! Will get it sorted.

Many Thanks for that!

Here's a thought:

On our "to do" list is to create a Twitter / RSS / Atom feed for our site. This would contain events and news about businesses opening our closing in our town etc.

If other towns on your site where to do a similar thing you could use the Twitter API to aggregate them and display them on your site and make it more 'sticky'.

Regards

Dotty

fisicx

28th August 2009, 12:13

Trouble is it's not actually my site. It's been floundering for some time but the owners don't seen to want to update and upgrade. It's going in the website reviews soon for suggestions as to how to do a lazarus.

allsquare

28th August 2009, 12:30

"A slag heap (also called bing, Boney piles, culm, waste coal, Terekons (Russian), gob piles, or slate dumps) is a pile built of accumulated tailings, which are by-products of mining. ."

Interesting ;)

1weekSEO

28th August 2009, 12:58

I've only ever used Google, at home I use Blackle
Yeah, tried the others, but if it ain't broke.........

Kev Jaques

28th August 2009, 13:18

Forget real-time search, you guys are not thinking ahead ;)

BORG - IMPLANTS will be the next BIG THING ;)

Wired straight into the net, you can just think of things and answers will invade your brain (moron or not) ;) heheh

fisicx

28th August 2009, 13:53

Hah, that is so 2009.

This is the future (http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/02/ted-digital-six/).

sjr4x4

28th August 2009, 14:51

We've tried microsoft adcenter for ppc ads via bing and didn't get much out of it..... Even when we tried our hardest to spend our budget, we still couldn't manage to spend even a quarter of it compared to our google adwords equiv daily budget!
Al

To get back to the OP, we're having a dabble on Bing.

The CPC is incredibly cheap compared to adwords, but like Al's experiance, we physically can't spend our budget.

That said, make the most of it, Bing is generating a steady daily flow of conversions for us for a tiny budget, which will no doubt change if they do see an increase in searches.

If nothing else, if your new to PPC, use it as a training tool! The conversion rates per keywords is just about the same for both Bing and adwords. Cut your teeth on Bing, optimise then go for it on Google!