Beware False Logic in Advertising

[Cartoon Logos]

Many marketers are familiar with the term

'false logic' as a method used in advertising and marketing

False Logic is used to imply something is great when in fact there is no actual evidence to support the claim and in truth the opposite might be true

An example


If I as an advertiser were to say


We think McDonalds Burgers are great

They outsell any burger across the world!


You as a consumer might conclude that McDonalds burgers are the BEST burgers in the world, and this is what the ad is trying to make you think.

It isn't stated directly, it is implied ...using

False Logic

A statment of opinion (great) followed by a statement of outstanding fact (best seller)

We consumers know that McDonalds do not make the best burgers in the world so we can quickly see that this is 'false logic' but if we had never come across their burgers and were inexperienced in burger tasting in general, we may well assume that

outselling all other similar products in the world = best tasting product

I think (if memory serves) McDonalds did use a similar false logic marketing message like this once upon a time. But don't quote me on that!

Another example

We think Royal Mail are great

They deliver more packages across the Uk than any other courier company


Does this make this company the best and most efficient at delivering packages or does it just mean they deliver more because they have the resources to do so and a bigger advertising budget etc.




(Note examples here not statements of fact, used for example purposes only)

To conclude

If you come across an article, newspaper or otherwise that encourages you to believe (without directly saying so, as that might be a lie)

something is the BEST

on the basis it is longer lasting, outsells, delivers more etc

Ask yourself if 'false logic' is being employed.

If the article/product or service is the

best

Then it is likely the ad will say so directly

This is afterall the BEST way to promote the product/service

ie:

This service was rated the best out of 20 services
when reviewed by 20,000 people



Leah

ps. 'false logic' is a phrase allegedly coined by master copywriter Michael Masterson. However I first came across the term on science forums as these types of 'false logic' argument are commonly encountered there. Generally during science v religion debates.

[CKG]

Oh sweet baby Jesus and the orphans...........

[directmarketingadvice]

An example


If I as an advertiser were to say


[CENTER]We think McDonalds Burgers are great

They outsell any burger across the world!


[LEFT]You as a consumer might conclude that McDonalds burgers are the BEST burgers in the world, and this is what the ad is trying to make you think.

I don't think I've ever seen an ad with a headline "We think {our product} is great".

There are lots of ads that talk about the product being the top seller. That's called "using social proof" and is very effective.

(people are reassured to know that other people have made the same decision)

A more sophisticated version is social proof + authority:

"Why 7 out of 10 Dentists Recommend Colgate"

Steve

[Place of design]

I hate "the projection"

that is "sleep is worth gold"

buy "golden sleep"

and your kids will be more brainy (or whatever)

It runs down the line of create a need and sell to the need, But the need they create is adwaffle

[directmarketingadvice]

I hate "the projection"

Ad: "In times like these you want to keep your costs down"

Me: "Not really. I'm doing fine. You should see the amount of unnecessary crap I buy..."

Steve

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

A point to take out of this is to avoid 'false logic' in your own business advertising. All marketing and advertising will give you a greater response if you can back it up with evidence and explanations.

Answer the questions of 'why' and 'how' before the reader has a chance to ask.

[Cartoon Logos]

It's surprising how many 'marketers' and 'cw's don't recognise false logic in their own commentary, claims and advertising.

Perhaps they believe the claims to be true (due to their own lack of 'logic') hence do not see it for what it is.

Meanwhile I'll try to find the wording of the original ad that McD's used which contained false logic.

[Dawg]

Why is everybody writing in short sentences with double spacing? It's like the long copy monster has infected some with advertspaz.

I write like Trott.
Trott is a rich adman and copywriter.

False logic is used by politicians.
We vote for politicians.

Dawg's Biscuits are the best in the universe.
People who do not eat Dawg's Biscuits are dying.

More riveting background on the "Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies)" wiki.

[directmarketingadvice]

A point to take out of this is to avoid 'false logic' in your own business advertising.

What is this "false logic" to which you people are referring?

I did a search on google and found the following by Bob Bly:

False logic, a term coined by my friend and master copywriter Michael Masterson, is copy that manipulates existing facts through skillful writing but does not lie about or misrepresent those facts. The aim is to help readers reach conclusions that those facts, presented without the twists of the copywriter's pen, might not otherwise support.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like the sort of thing I use when writing copy, especially when I'm working with either weak benefits or a lack of proof.

Interestingly, Bly's article ends with:

to not use all the tools at our disposal - including false logic - to persuade the buyer is either incompetence, failure to discharge fiduciary duties, or both.

Well said.

Steve

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

What is this "false logic" to which you people are referring?

I did a search on google and found the following by Bob Bly:



I don't know about you, but that sounds like the sort of thing I use when writing copy, especially when I'm working with either weak benefits or a lack of proof.

Interestingly, Bly's article ends with:



Well said.

Steve

What I was referring to isn't exactly 'false logic', just something related to it.

If you make a claim or suggestive statement, it's likely to receive a better response if it's backed up with proof or an explanation. Answering the 'why' and 'how' so to speak.

[CKG]

"Nine out of ten cats prefer Wiskas"

Is that false logic?

They don't tell you what they prefer it to. They might only prefer it to being dipped in boiling oil, skinned and used as a hat?

"Carlsberg. Probably the best larger in the world?"

For what? Killing termites?

[Cartoon Logos]

"Nine out of ten cats prefer Wiskas"

Is that false logic?

They don't tell you what they prefer it to. They might only prefer it to being dipped in boiling oil, skinned and used as a hat?



Exactly ;)

It's everywhere

It's subtle

It can be used if you're a marketer and it can be avoided if you're a consumer

Re McDonalds

The best I could find so far is their use of the term

'Billions sold'

The mere mention is meant to imply 'better product'

It's clever depending on how you apply it.

[Cartoon Logos]

A more sophisticated version is social proof + authority:

"Why 7 out of 10 Dentists Recommend Colgate"

Steve

Like the example I gave in the OP then..



This is afterall the BEST way to promote the product/service

ie:

This service was rated the best out of 20 services
when reviewed by 20,000 people

[directmarketingadvice]

Like the example I gave in the OP then..

No, because your version doesn't have authority, only social proof.

Steve

PS I still don't understand what "false logic" is.

Is it just a name for "social proof"? I can't imagine Masterson would have meant it that way as he must have known about social proof.

[Colin Parker]

I think it is 'false logic' to assume that there is any other purpose to advertising other than to generate a response or sale.

Personally, I will use every trick in the book other than misrepresentation or falsification to generate maximum response.

If my advertising makes the reader assume that there 'facts' which I have not actually stated as such I actually think that is the mark of a good copywriter.

Colin Parker

[Cartoon Logos]

I mentioned false logic often crops up in science

Here are some examples

http://www.lyen.net/gpage52.html

From source

"The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. "

The false logic is the way that these two facts have been tied together

The Japanese eat little fat
The Japanese suffer less heart attacks

It's false logic as there is no reason to conclude that the two facts are related

I could equally say

The Japanese wat more fish than Americans and they suffer less heart attacks

Or

The Japanese eat more rice than Americans and suffer less heart attacks

Tying these two things two together in the hope we form a conclusion based on the association we've created, is what makes the logic flawed.

There could be any number of reasons why American's have more heart attacks than the Japanese. Lifestyle, pollution, food they eat, lack of exercise, genetics...endless list.

Without testing and proof

We cannot logically conclude that adding two unrelated facts together gives us a 'fact'.

But we see this happen all around us all the time.

We see it in advertising, in politics and in science

See how many more you can spot.

[Cartoon Logos]

I think it is 'false logic' to assume that there is any other purpose to advertising other than to generate a response or sale.

Personally, I will use every trick in the book other than misrepresentation or falsification to generate maximum response.

If my advertising makes the reader assume that there 'facts' which I have not actually stated as such I actually think that is the mark of a good copywriter.

Colin Parker

Indeed which is why the 'beware' aspect of my OP is for consumers ;)

I think we all use false logic to some extent (including none marketers and CW's) even without realising it in some cases.

Take 'name droppers' for example. They drop names as they hope that the 'association' leads us to believe they are as great as the people whose names they drop.

Some Cw's advertise themselves thus:

'I have studied under the world's best copywriters'

The conclusion they hope we draw is that they are great just like the world's top cw's.

But in reality all we know is that they studied under them and it means diddly squat.

Being a student of a great doesn't make you great by 'association'.

There is more to it than that.

However some who fail to understand fully what false logic is, might disagree.

[Colin Parker]

[quote=website copy;959413]Indeed which is why the 'beware' aspect of my OP is for consumers ;) quote]

This is a forum for businesses not consumers.

UK Business Forum.

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

Some Cw's advertise themselves thus:

'I have studied under the world's best copywriters'

The conclusion they hope we draw is that they are great just like the world's top cw's.

I think that's "false logic". How do you know what conclusion they want you to draw?

For example, John Carlton once critiqued a salesletter I wrote, gave a few suggestions and summed it up with the words "good job".

I don't advertise this, but I've mentioned it to a few people.

It wasn't so they'd conclude I was "just like Carlton", it was using "authority" - i.e. if Carlton praised my copywriting, I must write pretty good copy.

I still don't get this "false logic" stuff in advertising. Is it social proof? Is it authority? Is it statistics? Is it "apples v oranges" comparisons? Is it just making a load of **** up and hoping you don't get caught?

I dunno. Maybe someone will post some examples of this in advertising.

Steve

[Spiderden]

Re McDonalds

The best I could find so far is their use of the term

'Billions sold'

"Eat sh*t
900 trillion flies do"

[Cartoon Logos]

I think that's "false logic". How do you know what conclusion they want you to draw?

For example, John Carlton once critiqued a salesletter I wrote, gave a few suggestions and summed it up with the words "good job".

I don't advertise this, but I've mentioned it to a few people.

It wasn't so they'd conclude I was "just like Carlton", it was using "authority" - i.e. if Carlton praised my copywriting, I must write pretty good copy.

I still don't get this "false logic" stuff in advertising. Is it social proof? Is it authority? Is it statistics? Is it "apples v oranges" comparisons? Is it just making a load of **** up and hoping you don't get caught?

I dunno. Maybe someone will post some examples of this in advertising.

Steve

Read Bob Bly's book (reportedly one of world's best CW's), he refers to it

He used the McDonald's example

and a few others

[Cartoon Logos]

Read Bob Bly's book (reportedly one of world's best CW's), he refers to it

He used the McDonald's example

and a few others

Meanwhile

re the cw who claimed being trained by the best tarred her with the same brush

and you concluding it gave 'authority'

is false logic

Being trained by the best isn't proof or authority that you have any skill in that area.

Example

A bloke who zero co-ordination (as we've seen on strictly come dancing)
is trained by world's best dancer intensively for several weeks. After all that training with world's best he is remains a rubbish dancer.

Imagine he then goes out with this ad

'My family tree will make you aw great dancer'

then follows up the headline with

'I trained with the best and that's why I'm good'.

[Cartoon Logos]

Meanwhile

re the cw who claimed being trained by the best tarred her with the same brush

and you concluding it gave 'authority'

is false logic

Being trained by the best isn't proof or authority that you have any skill in that area.

Example

A bloke who zero co-ordination (as we've seen on strictly come dancing)
is trained by world's best dancer intensively for several weeks. After all that training with world's best he is remains a rubbish dancer.

Imagine he then goes out with this ad

'My family tree will make you aw great dancer'

then follows up the headline with

'I trained with the best and that's why I'm good'.

excuse utter gibberish and typo's above!

Trying to reply while holding conversation and lining conservarory roof with heat proof film. I'll reply more sensibly later when I can concentrate on one thing!

[directmarketingadvice]

Read Bob Bly's book (reportedly one of world's best CW's), he refers to it

This may be news to you, but he's written dozens of books.

Again, I don't seem able to get an example of this "false logic" being used in a real world ad.

(and, in particular, one that isn't just a straightforward use of social proof)

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

Meanwhile

re the cw who claimed being trained by the best tarred her with the same brush

and you concluding it gave 'authority'

No, I said "it was using "authority"".

Very different thing.

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

This may be news to you, but he's written dozens of books.

Again, I don't seem able to get an example of this "false logic" being used in a real world ad.

(and, in particular, one that isn't just a straightforward use of social proof)

Steve


Steve

I know you don't understand false logic that much is obvious

the book is

The copywriters handbook

a step by step guide to writing copy that sells

[directmarketingadvice]

I know you don't understand false logic that much is obvious

Interesting. It's my fault that (a) you can't explain what it is (b) you can't provide a single example of this in the real world.

(bar "billions served", which is just simple social proof)

Which makes me wonder why we need to "beware" it, when it's so rare.

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

Interesting. It's my fault that (a) you can't explain what it is (b) you can't provide a single example of this in the real world.

(bar "billions served", which is just simple social proof)

Which makes me wonder why we need to "beware" it, when it's so rare.

Steve

Steve


I provided examples

I provided a source with numerous examples used in science and politics

and

I provided a top cw who discusses false logic and it's uses in one of his books and

I gave you the name of that book

and

I gave the name of the person who is said to have coined the phrase false logic in advertising

Some people here do 'get it'

I get it

you don't get it

It's not rare it is all around us.

It's in my own copy, it's probably in yours.

I know it's in your posts. I spent a whole thread trying to educate you on your false logic.


If you don't get it (and you don't as you've admitted) I don't have the time to teach you.

The details and sources are all here.

If I have time I might scan the pages of Bobs book. If not, you're on your own.

[directmarketingadvice]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm nit-picking, let me explain the difference between what Leah's calling "false logic" and what marketers call "social proof".. and how they work 100% differently in the minds of prospects.

(assuming "false logic" exists and works at all)

Let's start with her explanation:

False Logic is used to imply something is great when in fact there is no actual evidence to support the claim and in truth the opposite might be true

An example

If I as an advertiser were to say

[CENTER]We think McDonalds Burgers are great

They outsell any burger across the world!

[LEFT]You as a consumer might conclude that McDonalds burgers are the BEST burgers in the world, and this is what the ad is trying to make you think.

It isn't stated directly, it is implied ...using

False Logic

A statment of opinion (great) followed by a statement of outstanding fact (best seller)

We consumers know that McDonalds do not make the best burgers in the world so we can quickly see that this is 'false logic' but if we had never come across their burgers and were inexperienced in burger tasting in general, we may well assume that

outselling all other similar products in the world = best tasting product

Here's my view:

People aren't stupid and they don't believe "best selling = best".

Ford Modeos outsell Rolls Royces (and Ferraris, Bugatis etc.) Do you think the Modeo is a better car?

No.

More British people go on holiday to Majorca than the Bahamas. Does that mean we believe Majorca is better?

No.

More people eat at McDonalds than the fanciest French restaurant in your town. Does McDonalds have better food?

No. Of course not.

People aren't stupid. We know "highest selling" is rarely the best.

(if there's any false logic, it's more likely to be that "expensive = best" or "scarce = good")

Social proof is part of the natural herding instinct in humans - when we don't know what to do, we look to people who are similar to us and do the same as them.

So, the reason we might buy something because it's the best seller isn't to get the thing that's "best", it's to avoid mistakes and to make sure we end up with something that's good enough.

If we need to buy a widget and (a) we don't know how to evaluate widgets and (b) our main criteria is to buy one that's good enough to do the job, then we're likely to buy the one that sells best to people like us.

(unless we've heard bad things about it from the people who bought it)

We don't buy the Rolls Royce of widgets... unless we think we're Rolls Royce- type people.

So, social proof is something we use to shortcut decision making when we don't need to buy the best.

And, it's not false logic, it's simply "if it's good enough for those people, it'll almost certainly be good enough for me".

And that's why it's a totally different appeal to what Leah's calling "false logic". ("top seller = best", "I want best, so I'll buy the top seller")

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

Some people here do 'get it'

In that case, would one of them come onto this thread and explain it clearly? What exactly is it? And how is it's different to social proof?

Oh, and if you can come up with a real-life example of it being used in an advert, that would help, too.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

In that case, would one of them come onto this thread and explain it clearly? What exactly is it? And how is it's different to social proof?

Oh, and if you can come up with a real-life example of it being used in an advert, that would help, too.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

Ok, my conservatory roof is done and I am without distractions so I'll have another go


To see the false logic, you have to be able to see clearly why one thing doesn't = another. There has to be more substantial proof and in some cases that proof is impossible, which is the case for many things in science.

Example:

Many additives are declared harmless on the basis that 'harm' can not be proven.

It is due to the nature of scientific method which makes it hard/impossible to prove.

It is also the case however, that these additives have NEVER been proven 'safe'

But that fact is omitted when these additives are being sold as 'safe' using the

'not proven to be harmful'

marketing method.

Do you see?

It's all about wording

Omitting certain facts in place of others to guide us to the desired conclusion.

[Cartoon Logos]

Steve

The best most recent example of false logic on this board was your thread re the long running ad

The newspaper article tried to convince us the ad was 'better' because it was long running.

That is false logic as long running is not 'proof' of a successful ad

Not on it's own

Proof would be

unusually high sales
outperforming other ads

and so on

long running on it's own proves nothing as the reason it was long running could have been complaceny on behalf of the man who placed the ad.

Thus to determine and measure true success, one requires more 'facts' relating to sales and performance.

If those boxes were also ticked, then we may indeed have an unusually successful ad.

It is possibly the case now you are aware of false logic you'll spot it all around you.


Thus the purpose of the thread

Beware false logic

Is for consumers, not so much marketers

Politicians, marketers, scientists will always try to manipulate how we think, vote and buy using false logic

(in other words...crap logic ;) )

Leah

[directmarketingadvice]

Ok, my conservatory roof is done and I am without distractions so I'll have another go

Nah, don't bother.

I'd rather it was someone more articulate, more willing to answer a simple direct question and able to discuss things without throwing a hissy fit.

And, with all the people you claim clearly understand what you were saying, I'm sure there'll be no shortage of vounteers who meet these criteria.

(maybe they're all busy today - it's a Sunday afterall... but, I'm in no hurry, I'll read their comments tomorrow)

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

Nah, don't bother.

I'd rather it was someone more articulate, more willing to answer a simple direct question and able to discuss things without throwing a hissy fit.

And, with all the people you claim clearly understand what you were saying, I'm sure there'll be no shortage of vounteers who meet these criteria.

(maybe they're all busy today - it's a Sunday afterall... but, I'm in no hurry, I'll read their comments tomorrow)

Steve

Steve

The only one who throws hissy's around here is you.

If you don't get it after this amount of explaining you never will.

But if you are determined to understand (and I respect your desire to do so) perhaps get Bob's book, he's pretty articulate.

(page 71-74 in the book already quoted)

If you still don't get it after that, who will you blame?

[UKSBD]

Is this an example of false logic?

Starting a thread about a subject telling us it is a warning about the subject

when in reallity the only reason it was posted was to have a pop at someone?

[Colin Parker]

What I am struggling to understand here is the OP's crusade against the use of 'false logic' in advertising - whatever exactly this false logic is.

Making mountains out of molehills seems an understatement.

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

If you don't get it after this amount of explaining you never will.

But if you are determined to understand (and I respect your desire to do so) perhaps get Bob's book, he's pretty articulate.

(page 71-74 in the book already quoted)

If you still don't get it after that, who will you blame?

You keep blaming me for failing to understand what you're saying.

But, don't you think it's pretty strange that you've failed to come up with an effective example from a real ad?

(despite me asking over and over and over...)

I guess the proof of the pudding will be whether someone else can come on and explain what you've been trying to say, and manage to make it seem clear and sensible.

We'll have to wait and see if that happens.

However, could the fact you feel the need to give a reference to 4 pages in a book - and expect someone to go off and read it - be a reflection of your inability to explain yourself clearly?

Just a thought.

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

What I am struggling to understand here is the OP's crusade against the use of 'false logic' in advertising - whatever exactly this false logic is.

Making mountains out of molehills seems an understatement.

Especially if it's so hard to find examples of this "false logic" in the real world.

If it's so incredibly rare, should we really be worried?

(and, if it's such an incredibly powerful persuasion tool, why aren't we seeing it more often? I confess, I'm stumped!)

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

Colin

One could ask

why start a thread on anything?

I start threads on many things hence there is no crusade :rolleyes:

Unless all my threads are crusades?

The reason the thread is becoming repetative is that one poster wants to understand it better and hence numerous examples and so on.

Don't make something out of this that isn't there.

We've been down that rather dull road already and it's getting tiresome.

[Cartoon Logos]

Especially if it's so hard to find examples of this "false logic" in the real world.

If it's so incredibly rare, should we really be worried?

(and, if it's such an incredibly powerful persuasion tool, why aren't we seeing it more often? I confess, I'm stumped!)

Steve

Steve, did you miss the examples posted :|

Meanwhile

McDonalds was the example offered by Bob Bly ..or is he also talking nonsense?

Meanwhile it's not something to worry about, it's something to be aware of.

As in the case re additives being 'safe' on the basis they are not proven to be unsafe.

There is a new example in the news today

Relating to

'beer maybe being good for women's bones'.

You have to understand a little about scientific method to appreciate the flaws in statements like these.

Also you will find much research like this is sponsored by the person wanting to sell more of the newly discovered miracle 'health' product.

Thus instantly dubious.

[Colin Parker]

Don't make something out of this that isn't there.



The only thing that isn't 'there' is an example of false logic.

Colin Parker

[Cartoon Logos]

The only thing that isn't 'there' is an example of false logic.

Colin Parker

I posted numerous examples

I can't help that you don't 'get it'

I get it

Bob Bly gets it

Michael Masterton gets it

These are the only two references I have to this in terms of advertising as my introduction to it came via science forums.

I really don't know why some get it, it's crystal clear to me and I never needed any examples or sources.

But everyone 'thinks' a little different and that's ok, it makes life interesting.

Bob Bly says this about false logic

' is copy that through skillful writing manipulates (but does not lie or misrepresent) existing facts. The objective: to help readers come to conclusions that these facts, presented without the twists of the cw's pen, might not otherwise support.'

He goes on to say

'It's possible to argue that some false logic borders on deception, but the marketer has to make that call for himself'

He mentions McDonalds ad

re

'billions sold'

as an example

It is meant to encourage us to believe more sold = best

etc.

Hope this helps

Leah

[Gillie]

Ok tell me I am wrong, but false logic to me is merely take one fact alone to prove something instead of taking many factors ... yes?

[Cartoon Logos]

Ok tell me I am wrong, but false logic to me is merely take one fact alone to prove something instead of taking many factors ... yes?

It's more of a case of the fact mentioned doesn't actually prove anything at all but it makes us 'through clever wording' reach a favourable conclusion about the product etc.

If there are solid supporting facts it is likely they'll be stated right up front as selling points.

'voted best tasting burger by 7/10 consumers'

is preferable to

'billions sold'

but if 7/10 haven't voted the burger the best, they have to go with something else.

(Rather they don't have to, they just did according to Bob Bly)

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Ok tell me I am wrong, but false logic to me is merely take one fact alone to prove something instead of taking many factors ... yes?

I think 'proof' is the point behind false logic. Something is provided which appears to be evidence of a certain value or trait, but isn't actually evidence or proof at all.

For example: McDonalds stating that they have solid millions of burgers and using that as 'evidence' that they are the best.

I agree with Steve though, it sounds more like social proof as opposed to false logic. Either way, think it's a useful copywriting technique and if it converts more of those prospects into sales, then I'm all for it.

[Gillie]

I think 'proof' is the point behind false logic. Something is provided which appears to be evidence of a certain value or trait, but isn't actually evidence or proof at all.

For example: McDonalds stating that they have solid millions of burgers and using that as 'evidence' that they are the best.

I agree with Steve though, it sounds more like social proof as opposed to false logic. Either way, think it's a useful copywriting technique and if it converts more of those prospects into sales, then I'm all for it.

That to me is not false logic ie the McDonalds thing, its merely a statement issued whereby consumers are asked to draw their own conclusions ...

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

That to me is not false logic ie the McDonalds thing, its merely a statement issued whereby consumers draw their own conclusions ...

I think it's the intention behind it which makes it 'false logic' or not. Consumers draw their own conclusions, but the wording has been placed there as apparent 'evidence' to back-up a specific conclusion (i.e. McDonalds is the best).

I don't think this 'false logic' thing is a big deal really. It's just a term given to a simple technique which is neither particularly good nor bad. Consumers shouldn't fear it and copywriters should embrace it.

[Cartoon Logos]

it sounds more like social proof as opposed to false logic. Either way, think it's a useful copywriting technique and if it converts more of those prospects into sales, then I'm all for it.

The term False logic in terms of advertising was 'allegedly' coined by Michael M (top cw)

I say 'allegedly' (and did so in my OP) as this to me is a term taken from 'science'.

The statements when viewed logically are clearly flawed.

Hence the term 'false logic'.

I look at these things from that perspective, not through a trained cw eye but through experience on science forums.

I probably never gave it a second thought before, I can't be sure though. It's been a while.

[Cartoon Logos]

That to me is not false logic ie the McDonalds thing, its merely a statement issued whereby consumers are asked to draw their own conclusions ...

That is the 'false logic' part ;)

It's not logical to assume more = better

Hence false logic

But regardless of the poor logic, some people will still draw the conclusion

that

more = better

and that for McD's = more sales

[Cartoon Logos]

I think it's the intention behind it which makes it 'false logic' or not. Consumers draw their own conclusions, but the wording has been placed there as apparent 'evidence' to back-up a specific conclusion (i.e. McDonalds is the best).

I don't think this 'false logic' thing is a big deal really. It's just a term given to a simple technique which is neither particularly good nor bad. Consumers shouldn't fear it and copywriters should embrace it.

It's not to be feared

It's more a case of

Consumers beware

Marketers, if you dare ;)

We all do it to some degree. Not always intentionally.

[Gillie]

Think you will find that logic, false and otherwise was first 'invented' by good old Aristotle.

To explain it better to me would be to say that of the following two statements only one is false logic the other is just piffle!

All professors are brilliant; Smith is a professor, therefore, Smith is brilliant

All professors are brilliant; Smith is brilliant; therefore, Smith is a professor

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Think you will find that logic, false and otherwise was first 'invented' by good old Aristotle.

To explain it better to me would be to say that of the following two statements only one is false logic the other is just piffle!

All professors are brilliant; Smith is a professor, therefore, Smith is brilliant

All professors are brilliant; Smith is brilliant; therefore, Smith is a professor

Personally I'd say 'false logic' is more suited to the following examples:

Smith is a professor; he has won many awards; therefore, smith is a brilliant professor.

Winning many awards is a strong indication that is a good professor. Therefore, saying he has won many awards is good evidence that this statement is true.

Smith is a professor; he has given 1,000 seminars; therefore, smith is a brilliant professor.

Just because smith has given so many seminars, people may conclude that he is very good at being a professor. The sentence states that Smith is a brilliant professor and attempts to use the number of seminars he has presented as evidence. However, that number of seminars gives no factual evidence of Smiths qualities or knowledge as a professor.

Well, that's how I see this whole 'false logic' thing.

[Gillie]

No false logic means you take exact statements and moving them around you can get varying inferences from them ... in your example Scott, you changed the information completely therefore it aint false logic ...

[Spiderden]

The term False logic in terms of advertising was 'allegedly' coined by Michael M (top cw)

Is it this article (http://www.bly.com/newsite/Pages/DMNCOL10%5B1%5D.htm) you've been referencing?

[directmarketingadvice]

Personally I'd say 'false logic' is more suited to the following examples:

Smith is a professor; he has won many awards; therefore, smith is a brilliant professor.

Winning many awards is a strong indication that is a good professor. Therefore, saying he has won many awards is good evidence that this statement is true.

Is it "false logic" to assume, given the evidence, that Smith is a good professor.

Obviously, if he's a professor of French Literature and the awards are for growing the biggest turnips in Cornwall, it would be.

But, if that were the case, we'd be talking about advertising that's deeply and unusually dishonest, not something that's commonplace.

Perhaps an example of "false logic" would be a website for an investment forecaster that mentioned how often he's been on CNBC... but doesn't mention he's only invited on as a crazy nutjob to take the contrary side in an argument that doesn't have a contrary side.

But, that's just using "authority" - i.e. using the reputation of CNBC* as a form of endorsement.

So, maybe "false logic" is an umbrella term for things that already have names.

("social proof", "authority" etc)

But, although these things have some similarities, they have many differences, work very differently and packaging them together only manages to throw away important distinctions.

teve

* Not that they have much of one since Jon Stewart ripped them a new one earlier this year.

[directmarketingadvice]

Is it this article (http://www.bly.com/newsite/Pages/DMNCOL10%5B1%5D.htm) you've been referencing?

I quoted from it on page 1 of this thread.

(about 6 pages before Leah felt it was necessary to tell me who Bob Bly was and that I should read "his book" - lol)

Steve

[Place of design]

Im fed up with the arguments - here are some real world examples

False logic:

- claim 1: I use the Abdominal cruncher / pilaties machine (coule be true)
- claim 2: My appearance has improved greatly in 8 weeks (could be true)
- claim 3: The abdominal cruncher / pilaties machine is the reason my appearance improved greatly in 8 weeks (false logic. the AB machine never made you look like a six pack weieldiong supermodel who devoted his whole life to exercising and vanity, the fact your appearanc echanged will also be due to the other exercise machines, the rest of the exercise routine, the diet change that goes with it too)

Here is a webpage littered with false logic: (ironically)
http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly.php

The Fundamentals of Persuasive Writing (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly6.php)
In this long article, Bob Bly goes through the 8 separate elements necessary to writing persuasive copy, (i am glad it is just 8, gee it must be so easy, i will for sure be a sucsessful writer with just 8 tips) whether it be for a sales letter, brochure or web page. This article is almost as long as an e-book (well just how long is an e-book?), and packed with examples and tips. Persuasive writing... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly6.php)

Personal Finance 101 for Freelance Writers (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly5.php)
As a freelancer, you don't have the luxury of a company pension plan (well that may be a load of xxxx;'s too). Taking care of your investments and retirement plan is something you have to handle yourself (nope, my IFA does). Bob Bly gives some great tips on how to get started (started at what?). Personal Finance 101... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly5.php)

The Business of Freelance Copywriting - An Introduction (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly4.php)
How do you break into the lucrative field of commercial freelancing (here we are being told it is lucrative)-- writing ads, sales letters, brochures, catalogs and other materials that will earn you as much as a six-figure income? (and that was the false logic) Bob Bly tells you how... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly4.php)


10 Ways to Make a 6-Figure Income as a Freelance Writer
(http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly1.php)
(the headline says you will get a 6 figure sallary) These ten pieces of advice are excellent and can be applied to any kind of freelance writing career. Bob is a freelancer himself, so everything he says is based on his own hard-won experience. (and that was the false logic - just because bob is a freelancer doesnt mean you will earn the salary)
(http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly1.php)

How to Network Effectively With Editors, Prospects, and Fellow Writers (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly2.php)
The purpose of networking is to meet as many people as possible who can, in some way, help advance your career. (the key word here is help) This article shows you how to network effectively and get more work. (and thats the false logic. to get more work, the work needs to be there, the editors need a new writer, and you needed to not act like a twerp) Read the full article... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly2.php)

How to Set and Get The Fees You Deserve (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly3.php)
Setting the right fee for a job is one of the toughest things to get right. (building a wall from 1/4 tonne concreter blocks is tough work) Even after 20 years as a freelance writer, I'm still struggling with this. (but I am a website designer, and exactly who is struggling here? and who has worked for 20 years?) Bob gives us four geat tips. (but will they have any relevance to the subjet? and maybe bob is sttruggling , so why is he advising?) Read the full article... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly3.php)

Read more: http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly.php#ixzz0OQIbQRLr

[Place of design]

Bleach kills 99.1% of known germs dead
put bleach in your toilet and you will be healthy - false logic

1. The "germs" originated from YOUR BUTT - does that mean you are not healthy - no. Context is the issue here
2. What about the 0.1% of germs it doesnt kill - they must be right little barstewards
3. What about the "unknown germs" we do,or we dont need to worry about those?
4. It's not like we prepare food in out loo's so does it matter if we do or dont kill the germs?

I am willing to bet that if one didnt use bleach in a loo for 6 months, you will not get any more or less infections, tummy upsets etc. than if you than if you did use bleach

Advice:
If you want to stay healthy, wash your hands after you go to the loo, wipe in the right direction and use a different chopping mat and knife for your fresh chicken and salad

[directmarketingadvice]

Hi Richard,

I think your abs example is a good one:

- claim 1: I use the Abdominal cruncher / pilaties machine (coule be true)
- claim 2: My appearance has improved greatly in 8 weeks (could be true)
- claim 3: The abdominal cruncher / pilaties machine is the reason my appearance improved greatly in 8 weeks (false logic. the AB machine never made you look like a six pack weieldiong supermodel who devoted his whole life to exercising and vanity, the fact your appearanc echanged will also be due to the other exercise machines, the rest of the exercise routine, the diet change that goes with it too)

i.e. if you see a "before and after", there could be other things going on (such as dietary changes) that aren't referenced in the ad.

As for the Bly examples, I wouldn't agree so much.

Some of them are unspecified statements that are unspecified in order to keep the copy tight - e.g.

"Setting the right fee for a job is one of the toughest things to get right." is in the context of being a copywriter.

"Bob Bly gives some great tips on how to get started" - i.e. sorting out a retirement plan.

So, I dont' see any false logic there.

Some are assumtions that are true most or all of the time - e.g. "As a freelancer, you don't have the luxury of a company pension plan". That's an assumption, but I don't think it's false logic.

There was one I thought was interesting:

Bob is a freelancer himself, so everything he says is based on his own hard-won experience.

Which, in NLP, would be called "Complex Equivalence":

i.e. "Bob is an experienced freelancer" + "Bob is giving advice on freelancing" => "Bob's advice must be based on his experience"

But, that's not necessarily the case.

From a marketing perspective it's an interesting tool - and, at times, useful.

Frank Kern uses that kind of thing - along with a number of other language patterns - quite a lot.

However, to repeat what I said about "authority" and "social proof", it's something that is an entity in itself and throwing it under and umbrella with a bunch of other things doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO.

(because you lose the distinctions)

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

Personally I'd say 'false logic' is more suited to the following examples:

Smith is a professor; he has won many awards; therefore, smith is a brilliant professor.

Winning many awards is a strong indication that is a good professor. Therefore, saying he has won many awards is good evidence that this statement is true.

Smith is a professor; he has given 1,000 seminars; therefore, smith is a brilliant professor.

Just because smith has given so many seminars, people may conclude that he is very good at being a professor. The sentence states that Smith is a brilliant professor and attempts to use the number of seminars he has presented as evidence. However, that number of seminars gives no factual evidence of Smiths qualities or knowledge as a professor.

Well, that's how I see this whole 'false logic' thing.

well done ;)

Nice to know someone gets what I assumed (wrongly it now appears) was a simple concept to understand

[Cartoon Logos]

Im fed up with the arguments - here are some real world examples

False logic:

- claim 1: I use the Abdominal cruncher / pilaties machine (coule be true)
- claim 2: My appearance has improved greatly in 8 weeks (could be true)
- claim 3: The abdominal cruncher / pilaties machine is the reason my appearance improved greatly in 8 weeks (false logic. the AB machine never made you look like a six pack weieldiong supermodel who devoted his whole life to exercising and vanity, the fact your appearanc echanged will also be due to the other exercise machines, the rest of the exercise routine, the diet change that goes with it too)

Here is a webpage littered with false logic: (ironically)
http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly.php

The Fundamentals of Persuasive Writing (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly6.php)
In this long article, Bob Bly goes through the 8 separate elements necessary to writing persuasive copy, (i am glad it is just 8, gee it must be so easy, i will for sure be a sucsessful writer with just 8 tips) whether it be for a sales letter, brochure or web page. This article is almost as long as an e-book (well just how long is an e-book?), and packed with examples and tips. Persuasive writing... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly6.php)

Personal Finance 101 for Freelance Writers (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly5.php)
As a freelancer, you don't have the luxury of a company pension plan (well that may be a load of xxxx;'s too). Taking care of your investments and retirement plan is something you have to handle yourself (nope, my IFA does). Bob Bly gives some great tips on how to get started (started at what?). Personal Finance 101... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly5.php)

The Business of Freelance Copywriting - An Introduction (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly4.php)
How do you break into the lucrative field of commercial freelancing (here we are being told it is lucrative)-- writing ads, sales letters, brochures, catalogs and other materials that will earn you as much as a six-figure income? (and that was the false logic) Bob Bly tells you how... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly4.php)


10 Ways to Make a 6-Figure Income as a Freelance Writer
(http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly1.php)
(the headline says you will get a 6 figure sallary) These ten pieces of advice are excellent and can be applied to any kind of freelance writing career. Bob is a freelancer himself, so everything he says is based on his own hard-won experience. (and that was the false logic - just because bob is a freelancer doesnt mean you will earn the salary)
(http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly1.php)

How to Network Effectively With Editors, Prospects, and Fellow Writers (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly2.php)
The purpose of networking is to meet as many people as possible who can, in some way, help advance your career. (the key word here is help) This article shows you how to network effectively and get more work. (and thats the false logic. to get more work, the work needs to be there, the editors need a new writer, and you needed to not act like a twerp) Read the full article... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly2.php)

How to Set and Get The Fees You Deserve (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly3.php)
Setting the right fee for a job is one of the toughest things to get right. (building a wall from 1/4 tonne concreter blocks is tough work) Even after 20 years as a freelance writer, I'm still struggling with this. (but I am a website designer, and exactly who is struggling here? and who has worked for 20 years?) Bob gives us four geat tips. (but will they have any relevance to the subjet? and maybe bob is sttruggling , so why is he advising?) Read the full article... (http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly3.php)

Read more: http://www.freelancewritingsuccess.com/bly.php#ixzz0OQIbQRLr




Excellent examples thank you

[Cartoon Logos]

Is it this article (http://www.bly.com/newsite/Pages/DMNCOL10%5B1%5D.htm) you've been referencing?

I didn't get the Bob Bly reference from the web, I have the book, but this looks like the same content from the book. Thank you for finding it. :)

I think it's safe to say, people are now familiar with the prinicples of 'false logic' if not the term.

[James1980]

This website is an interesting read:

Logical fallacies: nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

e.g. Appeal to Popularity ("everyone eats McDonalds burgers, therefore they are the best") and Appeal to Novelty ("This product is new, therefore better).