Should marketers understand design better?

[studiowide]

I wondered what the consensus was from fellow marketers in regards to how much depth a marketer needs to go, if any, to truly understand and add value to the design process for print and web campaigns. And vice versa; how much marketing knowledge should designers have in order to be conversant in marketing?

OR do these two functions remain mutually exclusive to the frustration of the customer?

[Colin Parker]

Marketers understand that design is always second to conversion ... designers often don't even understand conversion.

I have seen many websites which would look fabulous framed and hung on a penthouse wall but are totally US at selling the product or service they were designed for.

Having said that a marketer with design flair is a rare breed and their design skills will squeeze that extra % of conversion.

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

I wondered what the consensus was from fellow marketers in regards to how much depth a marketer needs to go, if any, to truly understand and add value to the design process for print and web campaigns.

I think it's incredibly important... because you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion.

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

I myself offer

marketing , basic design and copywriting services

Hence rather a unique service - all in one tiny pot

I don't design websites but I do advise on how they should look and what content should go where etc.

My most recent

is

http://www.vantagerestaurant.com

I advised on the presentation and wrote the front page content.

So far everyday since the changes were made the owner has had people signing up for the newsletter & updates on offers, events etc.

Still some tweaking to do though.

I'm waiting for password access so I can update the copy and pics myself etc. It'll be easier then.

Meanwhile in answer to your question, should marketers know more about design and vice versa, it helps but is also a lot to ask given what is involved.

Leah

ps I am not responsible for website header or pic of Taj Mahal ;)

[studiowide]

That's my sentiment exactly. I have the same regular "discussions" with designers relating to impact, conversion and designing for context.

Marketers who take control of the value stream from auditing through to implementation of campaigns, by understanding the constraints and limitations of things like print/web design and SEO will, in my opinion, make an even greater impact.

It would be good to get some opinions from designers on how they view marketing or whether the feeling is that the buck stops at the PC screen??

Carl

Marketers understand that design is always second to conversion ... designers often don't even understand conversion.

I have seen many websites which would look fabulous framed and hung on a penthouse wall but are totally US at selling the product or service they were designed for.

Having said that a marketer with design flair is a rare breed and their design skills will squeeze that extra % of conversion.

Colin Parker

[marketing difference]

It is the marketeers job to give the designer a good clear brief and let the designer get on with their job.

Too many times I have seen designers struggle with wooly briefs or minds being changed. On such occasion the designer then has to overstep and do the marketing i.e. positioning and objectives.

[Eagle]

you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads.
Blimey - that's a bit of a sweeping statement! I assume you're referring to 'copy'? Maybe some don't.

It is the marketeers job to give the designer a good clear brief and let the designer get on with their job.

Too many times I have seen designers struggle with wooly briefs or minds being changed. On such occasion the designer then has to overstep and do the marketing i.e. positioning and objectives.
Quoted for truth! :)

[Cartoon Logos]

Blimey - that's a bit of a sweeping statement! I assume you're referring to 'copy'? Maybe some don't.


Quoted for truth! :)

I see a lot of very nice looking flyers come through my letter box.

But the sales copy sucks.

Rarely do I see good copy on these things.

If I do, I keep it as a learning tool.

I keep the bad ones too, to show clients how NOT to do it.

[Eagle]

I regularly see copy given to me in a design brief that just plain sucks. I'm only too happy to advise and guide. ;)

[Cartoon Logos]

I regularly see copy given to me in a design brief that just plain sucks. I'm only too happy to advise and guide. ;)

I can believe that too.

It's often copy written by the customer and not a copywriter.

[directmarketingadvice]

Originally Posted by SteveGibson View Post
you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads.
Blimey - that's a bit of a sweeping statement! I assume you're referring to 'copy'? Maybe some don't.


I'm not sure why you chose to leave out half my statement. What I actually wrote was:

you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion.

And, in case it's not 100% clear, I'm talking about fonts and layout.

Steve

[alphanumeric]

It is the marketeers job to give the designer a good clear brief and let the designer get on with their job.

Too many times I have seen designers struggle with wooly briefs or minds being changed. On such occasion the designer then has to overstep and do the marketing i.e. positioning and objectives.

I actually agree 100% with this, some of best work has been via marketing agencies, mainly due to the fact that the brief is well thought out and had time spent on it.

However i am confused about the above statement regarding fonts and layout? Are you saying a marketing company should control how somthing is laid out and with what fonts?

[Eagle]

I'm not sure why you chose to leave out half my statement.
Well, to save your blushes, to be honest. :rolleyes: It was a pretty crass statement.

And, in case it's not 100% clear, I'm talking about fonts and layout.

So, you're saying that designers don't know how to lay out ads? Layout and use of fonts is one of our core skills...

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

I'd expect GOOD designers to know at least something about selling and marketing. A design can look absolutely superb, but it can also ruin the effectiveness of sales copy and the selling ability of the design as a whole. At the same time, a superb looking design can be created which ticks all the right boxes and makes the copy work.

If I use a professional designer I'd fully expect the headline to be large and attention grabbing, and I'd also expect the main selling points to visually stand out etc.

In my opinion, this is what separates the professionals from the amateurs. I'd feel much more confident using a designer who knows why and how my sales copy works.

[directmarketingadvice]

So, you're saying that designers don't know how to lay out ads? Layout and use of fonts is one of our core skills...

Again, you're missing out the key part of what I said.

Maybe you just don't understant the distinction?

Designers can lay out ads (whatever that means). However, the way they lay out ads (and the fonts they use) means they throw away most of the sales.

David Ogilvy once wrote:

The tragedy is that the average advertisment is read by only 4% of people on the way through the publication it appears in. Most of the time, this is the fault of the so-called "art director" who designs advertisments. If he's an aesthete at heart - and most of them are - he doesn't care a damn whether anybody reads the words. He regards them as mere elements in his pretty design. In many cases he blows away half the readers by choosing the wrong type. But he doesn't care. He should be boiled in oil.


Ogilvy then went on to say that there are some who care, but they have to rely on guesswork to try to make the right decisions.

He wrote that 15 years ago. Since then, a lot has changed.

There are now a number of books that cover ad type/layout and how it affects sales.

(Unfortunately, most designers haven't bothered to read these books. They prefer to go with their "instinct" or "taste")

And, online, because it's cheap and easy to test, there are studies that prove certain types/layouts usually convert better than others.

But, again, few designers read these studies.

Which is why I wrote: "you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

Steve

[Eagle]

Well, I don't agree but your opinion is yours.

[fisicx]

It depends on how you define 'designer'. Too many people consider the website designer to be the one with the photoshop skills who comes up with the pretty layout. I'd argue that these are graphic designers.

I consider a website designer to be the one who can pull together all the components of a website to create the finished product. This will include the content, programming, usability, accessibility, user experience, navigation, styling, imagery, testing and so on.

I wouldn't expect a merketeer to understand how a CSS hover effect works or how to develop a shopping cart but I would expect them to listen to the designer on how best to implement their ideas.

[directmarketingadvice]

Well, I don't agree

Again, a designer basing his views on opinion, rather than facts. :D

What exactly don't you agree with?

Are you saying that most designers have studied conversion tests and know this stuff?

If so, what have they read? Where have they gotten this information from?

Steve

[Colin Parker]

Well, I don't agree but your opinion is yours.

In direct marketing 'opinions' don't count, the results of testing do.

I am not too sure what part of Steve Gibson's post you don't agree with but if it is his quotes by David Ogilvy and his conclusions about most web designers not reading about/understanding conversion techniques then you are dead wrong.

You only have to read the posts by many WD's on this forum to realise that their abilities are squarely in the 'tech' HTML/CSS etc., camp and that their marketing and conversion knowledge and abilities are minimal.

Experienced direct response marketers like myself and Steve Gibson do not design any marketing on the basis of 'opinions' 'gut feeling' 'looks' etc.

We design our marketing based on the results of previous tried, tested and proven techniques and then ruthlessly test and discard any non performing part of that marketing campaign.

In website design there are a multitude of fundamental basics which if not applied will seriously affect conversion; I would name font type, font size, paragraph length, type colour and type background colour among these fundamentals.

Get these fundamentals wrong (as David Ogilvy stated) and your wonderfully 'designed' website may look 'pretty as a picture' but to the visitor may be almost unreadable.

However ... because the vast majority of web designers and marketers do not split test ... much of what I have written here (and the posts/quotes of Steve Gibson/David Ogilvy) will fall on deaf ears.

That is because we have long learned the awesome power of how small changes in font type/size etc., etc., can massively influence conversion, sales and profits.

Asking those who do not have years of split testing experience to understand the points we make on design/conversion is akin to leading a donkey to water. Often very difficult and very frustrating!

Colin Parker

[marketing difference]

Colin,

You raise some interesting points, about analysing the effectiveness of communications something that few marketeers outside direct and web marketing do.

However, I will still make the case that poor design is often a function of poor briefing. Because you are in the direct marketing industry and you require action, therefore your briefs are prescriptive and will tend to build on what you have done before.

However, if the objective is just to raise awareness, interest or desire, then you need to brief the designer and let them get on with it.

The big issue is that too many people who are involved with marketing do not understand communication models as they have had no formal training. On the other hand the majority of designers have been formally educated on how to grab peoples attention and get a message across.

[Lasting Designs]

Again, a designer basing his views on opinion, rather than facts. :D

What exactly don't you agree with?

Are you saying that most designers have studied conversion tests and know this stuff?

If so, what have they read? Where have they gotten this information from?

Steve

I've got clients who write excellent design briefs, as a result I usually am there abouts on the first draft and pretty much done on the second. I do have one or two that think they know what they want then completely change it when its done! And (IMO) change it for the worse:eek:, I'm not complaining, as I still get paid, however, and its a big however, I'd rather they get good design and effective copy to do justice for their products/services.

I get the feeling that lots of customers are out there, are like those that appear on "Property (Snakes and) Ladders. They are skint, they want to cut corners, they wouldn't know great design if it bit them on their backside. Then there are those that think they are right all the time, those that won't take advice no matter what, those that came up with an idea in a dream and the dream is a preminition to success, as their success was also shown in the same dream. Lastly there are those customers who research the topic, take advice, listen with an open mind and understand that spending a bit more and either take a slight hit with the profits, or more likely increase profits by doing something correctly creates that "WOW" factor that seals the deal instantly.

With the above in mind, I'd love to guide my clients to a few articles, chapters in books or have evidence based guidence to help them on there way. So having said that, I'm always up for a learning opportunity, so what books and website would you recommend, that I can point clients towards?

[Colin Parker]

Colin,

You raise some interesting points, about analysing the effectiveness of communications something that few marketeers outside direct and web marketing do.

However, I will still make the case that poor design is often a function of poor briefing. Because you are in the direct marketing industry and you require action, therefore your briefs are prescriptive and will tend to build on what you have done before.

However, if the objective is just to raise awareness, interest or desire, then you need to brief the designer and let them get on with it.

The big issue is that too many people who are involved with marketing do not understand communication models as they have had no formal training. On the other hand the majority of designers have been formally educated on how to grab peoples attention and get a message across.

One of the problems with 'briefing' is that the client very often does not understand what it is they are trying to achieve.

Typically the designer then offers the client a few website/advertising design options and the client picks the one that he thinks 'looks best'.

This is a 'blind leading the blind' format of marketing design.

I have to take exception to your statement that "the majority of designers have been formally educated on how to grab peoples attention and get a message across" - not in my experience.

You don't get 'formally trained' in direct response skills you learn these skills in the cold hard world of putting your money where your opinion is ie., spending your own money on your own advertising for your own business or being paid by a client not for an advertising campaingn that 'builds awareness' but on a campaign where you are paid by results ie., leads, sales or a combination.

Colin Parker

[fisicx]

...the majority of designers have been formally educated on how to grab peoples attention and get a message across.
Define designer?

In any case it's probably only the graphic designers who have formal qualifications. I can't think of any recognised 'website design' qualification, there certainly aren't any examinations in usability, accessibility and copywriting. There are courses in programming but that doesn't qualify someone to create an effective site architecture and logical page sturcture.

And I wouldn't expect the marketeers in question to understand these elements of design either.

[directmarketingadvice]

I get the feeling that lots of customers are out there, are like those that appear on "Property (Snakes and) Ladders. They are skint, they want to cut corners,

I agree.

I have clients where I give htem an idea for a split-test and they'd rather just go with it than spend £50 to get their designer to set the test up.

I keep telling them: my ideas don't always work, they need to be tested!

Then there are those that think they are right all the time, those that won't take advice no matter what

There are those people, too. And, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

So having said that, I'm always up for a learning opportunity, so what books and website would you recommend, that I can point clients towards?

I have a book that's my "secret weapon" and I don't share it.

"Ogilvy on advertising" has good rules re. print ads.

For online, the best stuff is sold for big bucks.

Stompernet has good info. In one of their seminars, Andy Jenkins did a presentation where he showed a bunch of tests he'd done on one of his ecommerce sites and the %ge increases he got from different things.

Jeff Johnson has a lot of conversion stuff. (some of it's bound to be on youtube)

Jeff Mulligan has a few tricks.

My own newsletters have given away a ton of info about split-test results over the last year or two.

Hope this helps,

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

Experienced direct response marketers like myself and Steve Gibson do not design any marketing on the basis of 'opinions' 'gut feeling' 'looks' etc.

We design our marketing based on the results of previous tried, tested and proven techniques and then ruthlessly test and discard any non performing part of that marketing campaign.

I seem to recall Colin is mainly using PPC. I'm mainly a PPC guy, too.

And, it's when you're using PPC - especially in competitive markets - that this stuff becomes essential.

Say, for example, you're spending £1 to make £1.20, that's a 20p profit.

If you can increase your conversion rate by 17%, that becomes £1 to make £1.40 and 40p profit.

i.e. a relatively small change in converison rate can double your business.

(or could mean the difference between failure and success, earning enough to support yourself or having to go back to the 9-5)

And, if your designer picks the wrong font, that's half your business (or all your business) down the drain.

{For example: online, Arial 12pt has been shown to get 17% higher readership than Arial 10pt... and beats all serif fonts by 30% or more.}

In website design there are a multitude of fundamental basics which if not applied will seriously affect conversion; I would name font type, font size, paragraph length, type colour and type background colour among these fundamentals.

I'd agree with all of those. Yet, most sites get some or all of them wrong.

(small, light grey text on a white background seems to be very popular these days - it might make the design look nice, but it's hell to read)

Steve

[Cartoon Logos]

I'd love to guide my clients to a few articles, chapters in books or have evidence based guidence to help them on there way. So having said that, I'm always up for a learning opportunity, so what books and website would you recommend, that I can point clients towards?

Bob Bly = Americas Top AD man (praised by David Ogilvy)
http://www.bly.com/new/index.html

Clayton Makepeace
http://www.makepeacetotalpackage.com/about/meet-clayton/

I once had a conference call booked with Mr M re a franchise idea I had for him (my claim to CW fame) but after a few hicups scheduling it burnt out to nowt. He's a good bloke though. I got a mention in one of his blogs.

These are some big shots in America

They charge thousands of $'s for a single sales letter, reason being they make millions is returns for their clients

[MarqueMyWords]

Cracking debate here all, and as a recent graduate in marketing I'm lapping it up.

As for myself, as someone who wants to open my own agency in the future, I believe it essential for me to take some classes in basic design so that I can get some sort of understanding.

As a marketer though, I would expect my designer to create effecient designs without me having to coerce them into doing so. Then again, as mentioned, if the brief is poor then they may miss the point entirely! I'm quite comfortable sitting on the fence in this one.

As for 'Ogilvy on Advertising' as mentioned by SG earlier in the thread, its a fantastic book, highly reccommended!

[Eagle]

I am not too sure what part of Steve Gibson's post you don't agree with...
This generalisation:

"you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

Not all, granted, but a great many do. Otherwise, would they still be in business?

Again, a designer basing his views on opinion, rather than facts. :D

What exactly don't you agree with?
The part where you said [again]

[QUOTE]"you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

I don't do web design so I can't comment on that but are you seriously still saying that we don't know anything about how to design ads (in my case) for readability? We don't know anything?

Again, you're missing out the key part of what I said.
No, you are failing to be clear in your 'copy'. i.e. you are failing to make a conversion. ;)

Maybe you just don't understant the distinction?
Nope, you are failing here. Are you not the expert in making the message understood? I thought that's what you were saying designers were unable to do?

Designers can lay out ads (whatever that means). However, the way they lay out ads (and the fonts they use) means they throw away most of the sales.
All of the time? All designers?

Good grief... :rolleyes:

[directmarketingadvice]

"you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

I don't do web design so I can't comment on that but are you seriously still saying that we don't know anything about how to design ads (in my case) for readability? We don't know anything?

You still don't seem to be able to grasp the meaning of that sentence.

The clue is in the first 3 words: "you can't expect".

So, if you understand what that phrase means, you'll understand that I'm not saying "all designers know nothing".

But, if it would make you happy, let me change it:

"it appears that the vast majority of designers know little or nothing about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion - and, as a result of this ignorance, they do enormous damage to their clients' sales."

Happy now?

No, you are failing to be clear in your 'copy'.

Firstly, this isn't copy. Secondly, I'm not resposible for your inability to understand a clearly written sentence in your native language.

Steve

[Eagle]

Nice back-pedal.

[tony79]

"it appears that the vast majority of designers know little or nothing about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion - and, as a result of this ignorance, they do enormous damage to their clients' sales."

Steve

That's a pretty sweeping statement Steve. Maybe the designers you've had contact with aren't up to scratch but to suggest that the "vast majority" are incompetent when "designing" ads is quite degrading to those of us who are more than competent with "designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

If I was to follow your lead and make a sweeping statement then it would be something like "Marketing can be taught from a textbook whereas good design requires not only an understanding of the principles of design but the creativity and flair to implement those principles in an ever changing world".

Maybe if you'd made the point that the vast majority of the designers you've encountered weren't that good then you wouldn't have had the kind of reaction from Eagle that you have experienced.

[directmarketingadvice]

Maybe if you'd made the point that the vast majority of the designers you've encountered weren't that good then you wouldn't have had the kind of reaction from Eagle that you have experienced.

Given the number of websites I encounter, it'd have to be some freakish 10,000,000-1 shot that this is down to happenstance.

So, I'll stick with my statement.

"Marketing can be taught from a textbook whereas good design requires not only an understanding of the principles of design but the creativity and flair to implement those principles in an ever changing world".


That raises the question what are "the principles of design" and are they based on the results of marketing split-tests?

I'm guessing the answer is "no".

And, if that's the case, the problem with this attitude to design is that it ignores what most of your clients want: the best possible response.

So, to go back to the original question - "Should marketers understand design better?" - the answer has to be...

"...yes, because you can't expect designers to know anything about designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

I think that's a fairly logical conclusion.

(i.e. if they've never studied it, you can be pretty confident they won't know much about it)

Steve

[Colin Parker]

That's a pretty sweeping statement Steve. Maybe the designers you've had contact with aren't up to scratch but to suggest that the "vast majority" are incompetent when "designing" ads is quite degrading to those of us who are more than competent with "designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

If I was to follow your lead and make a sweeping statement then it would be something like "Marketing can be taught from a textbook whereas good design requires not only an understanding of the principles of design but the creativity and flair to implement those principles in an ever changing world".

Maybe if you'd made the point that the vast majority of the designers you've encountered weren't that good then you wouldn't have had the kind of reaction from Eagle that you have experienced.

Tony - I know where you are coming from and Steve Gibson does have a very direct way of addressing issues - I've had my clashes with him before. But then he is a 'direct' marketer and so am I!

However, I still think Steve is 100% right in what he is saying ...

Which is basically that the vast majority of designers do not apply conversion techniques when designing but prioritise on 'looks' 'feel' 'originality' etc.

The problem on forums is that the wording in posts is often scrutinised with the eye of a lawyer and I think that is proven here with Steve being accused of saying 'all' designers are clueless about conversion.

He answered the question asked by the OP - as I have in my posts - and I stand by the statement that the vast majority of designers are not conversant, skilled or knowledgeable in conversion techniques.

Colin Parker

[CKG]

quite degrading to those of us who are more than competent with "designing ads or sites to maximise either readability or conversion."

C'mon dude. First lesson in the readability 101.

White on red reverse type isn't nice to read - unless your reading a theatre programme in the dark.

[Colin Parker]

C'mon dude. First lesson in the readability 101.

White on red reverse type isn't nice to read - unless your reading a theatre programme in the dark.

Oh deary me Tony ... your website ....

White type on red reverse ... a title tag which is the name of your company ... a blank white band across the top of your site ... no headline ... and copy which is blllllllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnndddd.

Me thinks you just proved the point Steve and I have made.

Colin Parker

[alphanumeric]

can i point out 1 major thing here:

web designers and graphic designers are not the same. Lumping all designers into 1 pot and only giving examples to a single distinction is not quite fair, especially when the example you choose can built by anyone and there freinds son.

As for me i actually come from a graphic design background (an area im soon to go back into).

I was taught from the begining colour and font psychology, some areas that marketing may see as "conversion techniques", however not every company as you think are worried about these "conversion techniques" not every peice of graphic design produced is done for sales.

Look at a lot of tabloids today the most striking ads use high impact artwork/photography with small yet simple taglines, these are not trying to get sales by making the headlines bold, using verdana at 20pt or whatever. They work by simply creating a mood, leaving the reader with questions weather or not they realise it, this is the power designers have.

Now back to the question..

How much knowledge should a marketing guy know about design?
They should understand the limitations of such platforms.

Should they design?
No.

How much knowledge should a graphic/web guy know about marketing?
TBH not that much, otherwise marketing people would not be needed, however they are needed. I myself will be using there services for my own company (mainly the web side).

At the end of the day the best work will allways be produced when both are involved.

[directmarketingadvice]

Oh deary me Tony ... your website ....

White type on red reverse ... a title tag which is the name of your company ... a blank white band across the top of your site ... no headline ... and copy which is blllllllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnndddd.

Me thinks you just proved the point Steve and I have made.

Colin Parker

Let's not make this personal. Tony didn't ask for a critique of his site.

We've got an interesting debate going on about the role of design and designers. Let's stick to the general discussion, rather than point fingers at individual designers.

(and sites that may or may not be intended to convert visitors to enquiries)

Steve

[Soul_Survivor]

Cracking thread here guys, can't believe I missed it up to now :D

I'm not as experienced with the direct marketing here as many others but I've recently kind of made the switch from making the marketing briefs, to doing the whole lot (design, code, copy writing etc).

I've employeed and worked with many designers over the years and even the best ones didn't ever think about response.

Just recently I've designed/written some leaflets for products and before I even started I was doing research on the best response methods. Compare this to another company we've been working with who got a freelance designer to produce a leaflet and they have come up with something all in 7pt point that strains the eye so badly, you throw it straight away, it looks pretty though!

IMO it's essential for a marketeer to have a good knowledge of design and the ability to churn out concepts be that for print or the web.

[bigmedia]

Only just stumbled across this, there's quite a heated discussion going on.

In my view it would be the marketing company who gave the brief to the designer, and he/she meets that brief. If its not right, the brief wasnt right. I'll spend as much time as possible extracting specifics about the brief, otherwise it'll bite me later.

I think some of the points of view here are generalised somewhat.

Matt

[Colin Parker]

Cracking thread here guys, can't believe I missed it up to now :D

I'm not as experienced with the direct marketing here as many others but I've recently kind of made the switch from making the marketing briefs, to doing the whole lot (design, code, copy writing etc).

I've employeed and worked with many designers over the years and even the best ones didn't ever think about response.



Straight from the horses mouth there!

Colin Parker

[Soul_Survivor]

Only just stumbled across this, there's quite a heated discussion going on.

In my view it would be the marketing company who gave the brief to the designer, and he/she meets that brief. If its not right, the brief wasnt right. I'll spend as much time as possible extracting specifics about the brief, otherwise it'll bite me later.

I think some of the points of view here are generalised somewhat.

Matt

Hey Matt

That relates straight back to the thread title, if a marketeer doesn't understand design, how can they write a good brief? Answer = they can't.

Straight from the horses mouth there!

Colin Parker

Hey Colin, who you calling a horse :D

[studiowide]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. This has turned out to be a very interesting topic. One additional comment that I'd like to make is that we mustn't forget; neither the design function nor the marketing process should ever take priority over the customers needs. They must always be working together towards the same goal.

Also, when reading through this discussion, there is a clear separation between marketing and design, this comes across very strongly... why is this I wonder????

For me, marketing 101 is about moving to, or keeping your business activities within a marketing orientation, which means considering and appreciating ALL functions. And as any manager would, I think a marketer must cross the "division" of design and other disciplines to understand the process better, therefore achieving greater results.

All that really matters is how you or your client is viewed as a business by the customer, and you return a profit. Once upon a time it used to be the scurry of activity to make sure the car park was brushed clean and the walls had been wiped down in preparation for the “client visit”. Now, our shop windows, so to speak, are available for all to see at the click of a button. Which is why as a Marketer I'll be personally learning all I can about Design, Copywriting, SEO and SEM in order to manage the metaphorical Internet broom to ensure both I and clients have the tidiest step!

Carl Da-Costa-Greaves

[Lasting Designs]

In an ideal world the tried and tested copy would be passed onto the designer, who would then sprinkle the whole thing with stardust, and the jobs a good'en.

Real life tells me the client often says here's what I want and this is what I have to spend. Now here's the thing, good designers have a clue about what works and what doesn't, experience and knowledge form part of the design, instinct, I'd suggest forms the rest. Some of what they've learned in the classroom will be valid for marketing purposes, it has to, in theory we (designers) have a natural connection with marketing and as such need to know the basics as a survival mechanism. To earn a really good living, without employing a marketing expert, we need to go the extra mile and find out more.

And this is where I can say that having a good designer over a budget one pays dividens, the real McCoy is used to conducting research, as such they will base their design on some scientific findings rather than than taking a punt (with their clients money) on something that looks pretty. That's not to say that an expert eye has been cast over the campaign by the good designer, but I'd suggest that in most cases a reasoned design will have been created, based on the above knowledge.

For what I do know about any profession, seldom do any of us have the comprehesive toolkit for every occasion. We all need to continue to learn, not only our own trades, but those that come into contact with them, even if it's not to do it yourself and hire an expert!

[Place of design]

I think this thread shows how inward looking some are

You have designers, SEO gurus, and Internet marketers

You also have traditional marketers, and brand consultants

Individually, all or any one of those peple may have great negotiating / business / communication or visionary skills
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On the other side of the fence you have customers. Big ones with big budgets, who can afford all 5 diciplines. And little ones with teeney weeny budgets who can afford just one. For the latter client, and many of the clients inbetween, they are faced with a choice as to what to do. Often they will pick the multiskilled individuals, or the ones with the best negotiating / business / communication or visionary skills etc..

Each to thier own, but it seems that if you start off with a view that your dicipline is the most important, or from your point of view there is only 1 right approach or answer, you will fall flat on your face

Some people are multi skilled, others polarise thier skills abd become total experts at one facet of thier primary job... what is important is that the job gets done properly. It isnt about who briefs who, or which job is so important it must have the first and foremost consideration

Once people realise that, eveyones job will be easier, and more productive

[Dazzling Dazza]

This one is a real catch 22 situation. Current economic situations have dictated that too many people (unspecialised) buy print, when unfortunately, they are not qualified to do so. My view is that print procurement is a learned service and one that is too easily overlooked as a commodity.

[Cartoon Logos]

A good example of design v marketing clash

was when a guy posted a thread asking for advice about his flyer.

I was the first person to point out that 'homes' weren't the target market for this product so any flyer would likely fail regardless of copy and design.

This was my opinion based on the product (insoles) and the target market which is athletes and competitive sports people. Ie: Not your average Jo!

Despite what appeared to me to be a clear error in marketing strategy, there were plenty of printers/designers offering advice on how to 'improve' said flyer.

A flyer does not demonstrate 'improvement' by looking nice.

It demonstrates 'improvement' by being effective at generating sales

For any marketing stratgey to be effective, you must first locate your target market. This is the first point of consideration.

I could be wrong, but that was my opinion.

I was at that time offering design and printing so I could have kept quiet and put my offer on the table like everyone else. But I felt it was irresponsible to do so.

Meanwhile

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I have withdrawn design and printing from my site in order to focus more effectively on copy and marketing advice rather than trying to do it all myself.

[Lasting Designs]

I agree.

I have clients where I give htem an idea for a split-test and they'd rather just go with it than spend £50 to get their designer to set the test up.

I keep telling them: my ideas don't always work, they need to be tested!



There are those people, too. And, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.



I have a book that's my "secret weapon" and I don't share it.

"Ogilvy on advertising" has good rules re. print ads.

For online, the best stuff is sold for big bucks.

Stompernet has good info. In one of their seminars, Andy Jenkins did a presentation where he showed a bunch of tests he'd done on one of his ecommerce sites and the %ge increases he got from different things.

Jeff Johnson has a lot of conversion stuff. (some of it's bound to be on youtube)

Jeff Mulligan has a few tricks.

My own newsletters have given away a ton of info about split-test results over the last year or two.

Hope this helps,

Steve

Having started to read this book, I can't remember spending a better £10.00 thanks for the tip Steve, whilst I know of many of the techniques, the rationel behind them is thought provoking.

In fact a bit of work being done at the moment that was in my "revisit" tray, the looked at and let the sub-concious do its stuff, was picked up, a series of about a dozen notes flowed like never before attached. One very happy bunny...

[directmarketingadvice]

Having started to read this book, I can't remember spending a better £10.00 thanks for the tip Steve, whilst I know of many of the techniques, the rationel behind them is thought provoking.

In fact a bit of work being done at the moment that was in my "revisit" tray, the looked at and let the sub-concious do its stuff, was picked up, a series of about a dozen notes flowed like never before attached. One very happy bunny...

You're welcome.

Steve

PS Did you get the edition with the white cover? If so, check the back cover.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

PS Did you get the edition with the white cover? If so, check the back cover.

Bragger :p

[Mellijelli]

Well I dont think one can expect a Designer to understand all the aspects of marketing, they do need to have a clear understanding of what is involved first off, Iv done some design myself and have found that when having a clear understanding of what needs to be done and what is expected then only can I develop a concept in my mind of what to do and how to go about acheiving that, if one goes into a design without any knowledge of the marking aspects needed it will ultimately lead to many unecessary changes being made thus wasting a lot of time and energy.

[Lasting Designs]

You're welcome.

Steve

PS Did you get the edition with the white cover? If so, check the back cover.

Indeed I did, great quote. perhaps I should provide them with a quote to follow yours "....And if you are in design, do as above, twice. Once to temper your ego and a second time to digest to stuff you really need to know"

[sirearl]

I wondered what the consensus was from fellow marketers in regards to how much depth a marketer needs to go, if any, to truly understand and add value to the design process for print and web campaigns. And vice versa; how much marketing knowledge should designers have in order to be conversant in marketing?

OR do these two functions remain mutually exclusive to the frustration of the customer?

I think most marketers will have a broad understanding of design.

On the other hand I suspect if designers understood marketing they would not continue in design.

Earl