Are my web design skills up to scratch? [Archive]

cmcp

17th June 2009, 11:14

In all honesty I would say take a good bit more time to learn what you're doing.

From the visual impact and looking at the code I'd say you still have a lot to learn about web design.

It's a lot more than understanding what a few of the tags do.

But if you've built them from scratch without prior knowledge well done, you're on the right path.

If I were you I'd get reading up on HTML / CSS, download a few free XHTML templates and start to understand how they work. Get yourself a good book to learn from (ditch any HTML generator program you use) and hit http://www.w3schools.com for tutorials.

Beachcomber

17th June 2009, 11:18

But if you've built them from scratch without prior knowledge well done, you're on the right path.

If I were you I'd get reading up on HTML / CSS, download a few free XHTML templates and start to understand how they work. Get yourself a good book to learn from (ditch any HTML generator program you use) and hit http://www.w3schools.com for tutorials.

These were both designed using Serif Webplus 10. I've never even looked at the coding! All done using a wysiwyg system from scratch - no templates.

As for being 90's - give it another 10 years and that will be all the rage!

cmcp

17th June 2009, 11:24

Cool, I don't know what that is, but sack it.

If getting HTML pages to talk to each other and work online gets you hungry for more, definitely look up HTML / CSS - you'll find it very satisfying making it all work.

TotallySport

17th June 2009, 11:37

There are two main sides to web desing IMO, design and developerment, and the look of your site in terms of design looks very homemade, the links look like flash buttons but without the flash, the pages don't have the same look (header bar changes, navigation changes), it needs alot of work. Some people are very very good at developing or very very good as design but it's hard to find someone with both.

The developing site, creating the HTML etc, agian needs a lot be desired your using image maps to do links, and what should be a very source source code, is massive in comparison, infact I think I could build that in tables and have less code. The site should be built to either your target market or the common specs, and I don't stats will show that most people have a 1440 x 900 screen size, and with your current design it should stretch to fit.

There are loads of little issues but I think you need a lot of work before this becomes your main role, the good thing is the steep learning curve when you start, and getting new things to work it always the good part, if your serious about it, there are loads of resources on the net to learn, its just a case of sitting downand building them and learning.

But I would say get someone else to do the design and do the developing if that floats your boat.

Good Luck

sirearl

17th June 2009, 11:39

fisicx

17th June 2009, 12:06

The layout of a website is only a tiny part of web design. As earl is suggesting, 90% of your work is reaserching the business model, writing the content, creating the site architecture and so on. You also need to consider how you are going to market the site as this can affect the design of the site (PPC landing pages are different to those from a poster campaign for example).

If the content is good then your visitors will forgive a wonky layout. But you do need to dig into the code if you want the site to be effective, serif adds all sorts of clunky code that you don't need.

Made4Print

17th June 2009, 12:09

I have read this thread and am not sure if BeachComber is winding everyone up?

These sites are very circa the early 90's as people have mentioned.
If thats the look you're going for then you certinaly got it right!

No one can create or look at a page like this (http://www.wanderingblade.co.uk/page30.html) and feel like any consideration has been made about the design and separation of navigation and layout for commercial use.

On the surface using these examples to promote a new venture is probably not a good idea.

I am not a designer (which is probably obvious from looking at our website) and dont know what experience BeachComber has commercially, but if these are working sites then at least there may be some hope. I have certainly used and continue to use shops with the same level of design however confidence does start out fairly low. Customers would be more confident purchasing from a site that generally looks like other mainstream sites.

edmondscommerce

17th June 2009, 12:46

put it this way..

they look like the kind of designs I come up with :-)

I gave up on webdesign almost immediately, there are some really good designers out there... worlds better than me.

I stick to what I am good at which is web development and ecommerce.

Beachcomber

17th June 2009, 13:03

I have read this thread and am not sure if BeachComber is winding everyone up?

:D 'fraid not!
The missus bought me this serif all in one web design kit thingy a few xmas' ago and I thought I'd give it a go. Never was one for reading the manuals ;)

Being the kind of person who's always on the look-out for a string to add to my bow I thought I'd explore the web design thingy as an option, I mean - how hard can it be ;):p

los_design

17th June 2009, 13:15

:D 'fraid not!
The missus bought me this serif all in one web design kit thingy a few xmas' ago and I thought I'd give it a go. Never was one for reading the manuals ;)

Being the kind of person who's always on the look-out for a string to add to my bow I thought I'd explore the web design thingy as an option, I mean - how hard can it be ;):p
:eek:

To do it effectively and obtain results.....extremely hard.

I studied for 5 years to gain my qualifications (developer not design) and still learn new tricks everyday in the ever evolving world of the internet.

;)

Made4Print

17th June 2009, 13:17

The missus bought me this serif all in one web design kit thingy a few xmas' ago and I thought I'd give it a go. Never was one for reading the manuals ;)

Fair enough, maybe you just need to upgrade to the latest version :)

TizzyDizzy

17th June 2009, 13:53

As most people have said web design is a very competitive area. Being a web designer is very different to being a developer. As far as I am concerned they are completely different disciplines. It would be exceptional to find someone who truly excels at both!

I would look at more website designs and look at the styles and even try to replicate them using HTML and CSS, only then will you be able to understand the dynamics of what goes into designing a website.

Best of luck though.

fisicx

17th June 2009, 14:17

As I've already suggested, putting together the actual layout/template is the easy part. It's the work you do before coding that makes the difference.

To give you an idea of the complexities involved take a month or to to absorb everything here: http://webstyleguide.com/wsg3/index.html.

This still won't help you develop your HTML/CSS skills and if you want to do anything dynamic you need to dip your toe in the PHP/ASP water.

Website design isn't a sinlge skill, it invoves everything from content writing to marketing, graphic design to market research. I know very few who can manage the whole thing on their own.

Wendy.Rule

17th June 2009, 14:40

Hi

As a non-webdesigner and developer, just a mere potential customer my immediate thoughts are overpowering colours, too many words, not the best layout and very old fashioned. So even if you do not change the structure significantly I would still rethink the actual content.
Having said that I am not a fan of your products, so perhaps you need to find a bunch of real customers and ask them if your site appeals to them as you are seeking to attract similar people.

LOL
Wendy

JamesCartwright

17th June 2009, 14:53

Are you using FrontPage? I find the Dreamweaver is more professional.

You may need a bit more practice, but everyone starts out the same - so don't worry.

Websites like Template Monster sell good templates that you could use for the design. I don't think you can charge as much for a template site, but they look very professional and may be a good idea to consider.

James.

brownie

17th June 2009, 15:18

I'm speechless.

Come on Beachcomber this has to be a windup? :D

los_design

17th June 2009, 16:25

I'm speechless.

Come on Beachcomber this has to be a windup? :D
Beginning to look that way IMHO

:cool:

serendipitybusiness

17th June 2009, 17:14

To be honest you will be hard pushed to have a successful business in web design if you don't know how to code or graphic design. Your customers will want you to give a true reflection of their business and design the site so that it converts.

An ugly design will give an unprofessional image of the company you are hired to represent, no matter what others may say. It is all about effective branding, so you could do with studying marketing and branding to see what works and what doesn't.

Without coding knowledge you will be unable to tweek the site to the customers requirement. You also need to consider cross browser compatibility, css, ssi, compliant coding and what aspects can effect the visitor experiance (ie if you have javascript links and the client has java turned off they won't be able to navigate through the site, users and search engines don't like flash websites etc)

Then you have the other areas, knowing how to market the site, knowing how to build a site so then if can be marketed effectively and safely, knowing how users naturally roam through a site so then you can build it to convert and lead the visitor in the right direction through the site.

Also you will need experiance of working with popular CMS and ecommerce scripts etc.

Unfortunatly there is a lot to learn, I have been in the biz for 8 years and still learn something new every day, I have to, to keep on my game and a step ahead. Unfortunatly it takes a lot of work to master the diciplines you need to create an effective ebusiness for someone. I started out purely in one area (seo) back when I entered this market, working white label for other companies after 6 months training and study. I only moved across to other areas as my skill and knowledge increased (although I was trying to install cgi scripts and edit design within the first week). There is no way I could have worked on a whole project from start to finish when I first started.

It is great you want to learn about website design and if you want to learn more I would suggest having a look at some websites that work and look good, noting down what it is you like about them, maybe downloading some pre-existing templates and having a look at how they are constructed. I would recommend dreamweaver for constructing a html design, editing coding, CSS etc. Go in and have a play, this is the best way to get to grips with the standard design stuff, the rest you have a lot of studying to do and it will take years not weeks to master until you are ready to set up a effective web design company.

However, if you have a business that includes webdesign as part of the the business you intend to create your time may be best spent elsewhere and you can always partner with an experianced developer/designer/marketer for the rest!

I don't want to disparage you from following your dreams, however I did want to let you know what you have instore for you, so you can have a true reflection of what lies ahead and what you need to do, should you decide to take this path.

Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck. :)

bcmedia

17th June 2009, 17:17

Some of the most successful websites out there pretty much adhere to no standard marketing approaches nor look very good. I remember reading an article about the most successful websites (such as Ebay & Amazon) looking awful, adhering to no traditional branding rules yet being the biggest earners on the web and turning over the most traffic. So even if you can't make a website look good, you can make it successful.

Now that being said, those websites were built in an era when even being ugly was cutting edge. You are now in an age where web designers are a commodity that we are in no short supply of & you need an edge to win business.

So, if I was to be critical I would say your websites were pretty unispiring, from an aesthetic point of view & this, in its own right is an area you could spend years learning. Furthermore, by using a package which hides all the code from you means your in no position to change anything manually should a client make such a request or ask for something bespoke. To become proficient in any one area of coding could take an age.

But ultimately, I would be looking at my site and asking myself what makes me stand out from the competition? From looking at your sites I would say not much, which means your on the back foot for actively promoting yourself as a web designer & certainly going to struggle to command any kind of livable wage from.

Beachcomber

17th June 2009, 17:18

I'm speechless.

Come on Beachcomber this has to be a windup? :D

Beginning to look that way IMHO

:cool:

Well no, it's a first attempt with a £20 web program.

Unfortunately I've not had the benefit of several years training, coding experience or graphic design tutorship so I am full well I may not be at the dizzying heights of your great and illustrious selves.

To those who have been able to offer constructive critisism I thank you all.

Beachcomber

17th June 2009, 17:20

But ultimately, I would be looking at my site and asking myself what makes me stand out from the competition?

One of the sites competitors is this lot - I thought it compared favourably:
www.cheapjunk.com (http://www.cheapjunk.com)

**Warning - do not open link if sensitive to poor web design (yes - poor even by my standards!)

Dawg

17th June 2009, 17:29

The thing about that junk site is that it probably works commercially. It's a B2B site selling junk, to people whose sole motivation is profit.
It does what it says on the tin, or in Designer: wysiwyg.
Perhaps neither a fair comparison nor a good starting point.

bcmedia

17th June 2009, 17:51

Apologies - I thought you were trying to set yourself up as a Web Designer, not a trader.

Beachcomber

17th June 2009, 18:04

Apologies - I thought you were trying to set yourself up as a Web Designer, not a trader.

No, the web thing was an idea for a bolt on option for another scheme.

bcmedia

17th June 2009, 18:26

Cool - Well here is my advice then.

Your sites don't look great, blunt truth - however you can negate this by using a few means, namely as follows:

1. You can use a pay as you go ecommerce site, ask around these forums and I'm sure you'll get some success stories. These tend to come with templates which are nice looking.
2. Use an open source package such as magneto, Joomla+Virtuemart or OSCommerce. All are free to use but there is a steep learning curve so this may not be the best option for you.
3. Stick with what you've got and get a book on SEO and start marketing the current site. I'm not going to lie and say it looks great, it doesn't, but I've bought stuff from sites that were far worse looking - its the product I want, not the sites image.

Just a few thoughts.
Regards
Craig

brownie

17th June 2009, 18:36

I may not be at the dizzying heights of your great and illustrious selves.

I cannot design a website to save my life, how do you think I know that?

I compared my poor efforts with a broad range of other websites on the web put together by professional design companies. It was pretty obvious my efforts fell far short of the required standard.

The fact you had to ask if your examples where good enough in the first place astounds me, have you compared your efforts with other professionally designed sites? I say professionally because you mention starting a business hence these are the people you will be competing with.

If you want I'll edit my replies and give you false hope.

sirearl

17th June 2009, 18:36

Well no, it's a first attempt with a £20 web program.

Unfortunately I've not had the benefit of several years training, coding experience or graphic design tutorship so I am full well I may not be at the dizzying heights of your great and illustrious selves.

To those who have been able to offer constructive critisism I thank you all.

Don't you take no notice of all the arty farty designers.

I run some of the ugliest sites on the planet.

Which also happen to be the most successful in there field.;)

Business mans guide to successful sites.

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-mistakes-in-web-design-1995-2015.html

Earl

Beachcomber

17th June 2009, 18:46

The fact you had to ask if your examples where good enough in the first place astounds me

:| The fact that I asked a group of professional, helpful, diverse and capable people for an educated opinion astounds you? Do you live in a box?

If you want I'll edit my replies and give you false hope.

Not at all. One of the greatest things about the internet is that it empowers everyone to have their own view and share it with the world. ;)

bcmedia

17th June 2009, 19:35

Don't you take no notice of all the arty farty designers.

I run some of the ugliest sites on the planet.

Which also happen to be the most successful in there field.;)

Business mans guide to successful sites.

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-mistakes-in-web-design-1995-2015.html

Earl

Good Article - Thanks for Sharing :)

cyberduck

18th June 2009, 12:27

The About us is getting lost at the bottom and left navigation is not very user friendly. It's a good first attempt though

pwaller30

19th June 2009, 00:16

Beachcomber

19th June 2009, 13:40

I think everybody else started out with the 90ish style of design specially those back in the days. But consider it a good start. Good things start from small beginning..Just go ahead and improve you craft. add to it some SEO design aspects as well.

Thanks. After the comments about the 90's look it set me thinking - Looking at my CD collection I think I may be stuck in 1989! :eek:

Part of your comment reminds me of a salesperson ages back trying hard to sell a new directory service that was just starting out.

"From small acorns giant oaks grow" he said.
The reply? "Most small acorns end up as squirrel sh*t"

His face was priceless.;)

edmondscommerce

19th June 2009, 15:45

will have to remember that one :-)

NetwiseHosting

19th June 2009, 20:39

Have a look at whats out there at the moment. You will see most sites are clean, professional looking creations with lots of gloss and shine to attract the visitor.

You might wonder what the purpose of it all is, especially when your site for example does display all the relevant information that its users require?

Well your website is your shopfront. You have to dress the windows attractively to bring in the customers, and more importantly, to stop them leaving right away.

You'd never keep a shop with dirty floors, rotten shelves, stained walls, tired old displays, and expect to sell anything. To stay competitive online, your site has to be up to scratch, I'm afraid thats just the way it is.

If you're really serious about making money and you cant produce a site of adequate standard, I would suggest getting some outside help. You will see the difference it makes on visitor stats and sales immediately.

hanad

20th June 2009, 17:52

I'm sorry but those websites designs are truely awful and good adverts as to why it's important to invest some decent time into learning a subject properly. Yes you may get someone who likes your designs but you won't be seen as a credible designer. Sorry, I know I'm being harsh but if you're serious about doing this there's no cutting corners, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up which takes time and commitment.

tony84

20th June 2009, 18:32

I think enough people have done you down now.

The very first website i made (after lots of practice on test pages) was www.ukhardhouse.info
I cant design any type of graphics for all the money in the world, i really am useless! So what i do is make a website - my codeing isnt upto much either, look at that site, i created it using tables. It was prior to css being as big as it is now though.
I think what im trying to get at is rather than using buttons (that look a bit on the tacky side) look at using links instead, mixed with a bit of css you can make links look really good with background colours and side bars etc.

The way i learnt was to create a page something simple with a header, top men side menu and main section. Then read up on how to do different types of menusand you can see the actual changes your making then. This then fills you with nice happy feelings to go on to something else.

After that then look at making it into a template, so you can create numourous changes but if a change needs to be made then you can change just 1 file rather than every page (personally i use a function called php include for this - although im not sure whether that is the standard thing or not but its easy to do).

Once you can create templates i would probably look at more advanced php functions, such as mailing lists or email forms.

I know ive written a lot there but thats the way i learnt. Mybe just create a page on something your interested in and make improvements when you learn it. Personally after about 2 years i realised coding and designing wasnt for me. I created basic pages and made money from advertising and used the revenue to pay people :D

Beachcomber

20th June 2009, 18:52

Sorry, I know I'm being harsh.......
Harsh but fair, we're all big boys here (and you can't hear my pityful sobbing online :p)

Seriously - I do appreciate all the very good advice and info you have all been good enough to post.

hanad

20th June 2009, 19:15

I think enough people have done you down now.

I don't think anyone is trying to be hurtful, people are just providing the honest critique the op requested. You'll get there, if you do more of the same things will stay the same, keep learning and you will undoubtedly improve :)

beebo

21st June 2009, 11:12

Start looking at the CMS's Joomla, Wordpress, Drupal etc.

ginantonic

21st June 2009, 18:38

I did exactly the same as you, spent ages doing my first website (with no prior experience at all) and was chuffed with the result...BUT...then asked on here what everyone thought, and was absolutely slated by all the "arty farty experts", all telling me how crap it was etc etc.
Being a girly, I cried. And cried. And cried a bit more. Then swore a lot.
I think you have managed to get your head round something that is NOT easy, and although I agree your sites are stuck in the 90's a bit, you have learnt while doing it, which is the most important thing. A lot of people wouldn't even attempt it.
I am currently playing around with FrontPage (come on then, all of you, I know it's not standards compliant, I know it's basically Word, but it IS a very good learning tool for a beginner.)
So, I would say, maybe you don't have a future as a web designer, per se, but there are a hell of a lot of sites out there that are far, far worse than yours! (Lings Cars as it 1st looked springs to mind...)

sirearl

21st June 2009, 18:42

So, I would say, maybe you don't have a future as a web designer, per se, but there are a hell of a lot of sites out there that are far, far worse than yours! (Lings Cars as it 1st looked springs to mind...)

Still is a mess in my book.

But don't stop it being the most successful car leasing site in the UK.;)

Earl

mobyme

22nd June 2009, 08:47

The designs aren't great but that said, isn't the retro look making a comeback. There are a lot of sites out there that look a whole lot worse than yours however they do great business because their business model is right. Users are far more concerned about how easy a site is to use and how good your products are than the look of the site. Take a look at Lings and Earls sites; they look like they have been put together by a twelve year old but both are hugely successful and their SEO is fantastic. I honestly don't think your design skills are good enough to offer yourself as a web designer; in fact I think you will be laughed off the block but that does not mean that you cannot build great sites for yourself.

Esk247

22nd June 2009, 22:42

believe me...they aren't as bad as some of the websites produced for businesses around my way!

i remember sticking a few websites up on here and got a total bashing..but the customers were happy, i didn't over charge and they're getting custom through those sites..i am still working with all of my customers so i dont see the problem...2 of these are now being transferred to a professional web designer after getting the bug for SEO and trying to get there website as high on google as possible..they werent interested before!

atleast you're giving it a go! :) we all start from somewhere dont we.

bcmedia

12th July 2009, 17:57

A great idea/product is more important than a great looking site... As noted above, some of the most successful sites look like a bag of sh*te but generate lots of cash - If a punter wants what you have then the look of the site is irrelevant IMO.

Of course, that's not to say a ugly site won;t be improved by looking good.

As a designer I am now bored of putting together stunning looking sites if they ultimately do not generate sales/visitors. It may sound egotistical, but if no one see them then my time has been wasted putting together a stunning piece of artwork!

sirearl

12th July 2009, 18:27

A great idea/product is more important than a great looking site...

!

110% true ,A great product is the key to success.:)

A crap product is hard work.:eek:

Earl

FireFleur

12th July 2009, 18:56

It is not so much the idea, as it is the whole business package.

Amazon for example could be made far more attractive, but it is the range of products that makes the site strong, along with a very honed ecommerce path and code.

The flexibility in updating the site is important as well, basic interface design is meant to be very simple, good design uses imagery to control the eye and set the scene ultimately to gain trust and comfortable familiarity to create conversion.

The big thing in ecommerce is the same as mail order, that is fulfillment, you get an order fast and you remember that company above and beyond the design of the site.

To be honest design is only important to big existing companies, primarily because that is the main thing they can comment on, and they do have an established brand with guidelines.

In ecommerce the main purpose of the design is to promote the products, again this is something that amazon do very well, they are primarily just hero shots sure there are areas they could do better, but every penny they spend on design is a penny off the bottom line.

Design will go back to the niche areas soon, and most web sites will just carry a standard interface; top menu, perhaps a side menu, it is much like a newspaper they are laid out in nearly all the same ways, and that is why when you pick up a newspaper most can interface with that familiarity.

If you want to be a designer nowadays better to look into product design or clothing design. Web design is near dead, it is so rare to actually need excellent design, standard interface with tweaks is acceptable and more often the desired and effective form.

bcmedia

12th July 2009, 19:16

sirearl

12th July 2009, 19:33

I see web pages as a bit like a magazine - You don't redesign the format every single time as the standard glossy format does what the customer wants it to do - sure the graphics and layout get moved about but the medium remains the same.

Thats a good idiom as the group with the largest spending power are the over 50's and they were brought up on magazines and newspapers.;)

Earl

KM-Tiger

12th July 2009, 19:43

Thats a good idiom as the group with the largest spending power are the over 50's and they were brought up on magazines and newspapers.

Now there's an idea. Weekly episodes of Dan Dare ...

Beachcomber

12th July 2009, 20:13

..........I've got a new site going live soon. Dare I post the url? :eek:

brownie

12th July 2009, 20:58

Go on then :D

FireFleur

12th July 2009, 21:01

Yeah it is probably close to magazine design than newspaper.

The rules are there, and whilst they can be broken there isn't too much advantage in doing so and breaking too many will just end up with a site that is too unfamiliar for a mass user base.

It is gone to where DTP went but perhaps with a bit more exposure, and a little less control.

Designing for mobiles still holds some challenges, but the funky stuff is back in product design.

Beachcomber

12th July 2009, 22:57

Go on then :D

oh I dunno, I'm scared! :p

matt.chatterley

13th July 2009, 06:01

I'm thinking of starting a new venture with web design as a core aspect and would be grateful if I could get a bit of feedback from the pro's regarding my site design skills - whether they would be up to scratch when compared with the competition. I'm targeting small business / sole traders.

Please do take a look at these sites and any feedback is appreciated.

www.whitepebblebay.co.uk (http://www.whitepebblebay.co.uk)
www.wanderingblade.co.uk (http://www.wanderingblade.co.uk)

Trying not to be too harsh..!

You say you're starting a new venture with "web design" as a "core aspect".

What sort of experience do you have?

If I were forced to make a judgement based on the sites above, I'd say you got out of bed one morning and thought "Ooh. Yeah. I could start a web design business!"...? :)

Do you not feel that you need to know something about and have relevant experience, skills and training (or natural flair) in the "core aspect" of your business?

Trying to be a bit 'nicer' - perhaps you could bring someone else on board to help with design/development (or outsource it), while you focus on other aspects?