View Full Version : Dreamweaver
HOMESAFE
16th June 2009, 18:58
I am just about to purchase dreamweaver to start building websites,part time, What sort of costs are involved if i buy a template for £40.00ish
I know i have to buy my domain and hosting but is there any other costs or is it just my time:rolleyes:
Carl-CSNM
16th June 2009, 19:05
Stock images & SSL Certificates for e-commerce sites...
That Guy
16th June 2009, 19:39
Electric Bill :D
brownie
16th June 2009, 20:59
Purchasing Dreamweaver is a large commitment, have you not thought about starting off with a cheaper application that will produce the same results? I'm still using my original copy of Dreamweaver 3 and all it saves me is time, I still use an open source code editor (notepad++)for certain tasks.
That Guy
16th June 2009, 21:07
If you havnt used dreamweaver you can get the 30 day trial to try it out :)
http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/
david64
16th June 2009, 21:51
I would not purchase DreamWeaver. I made my first site by hand-coding all the HTML, CSS and producing the design in Photoshop. This work is too complicated to be handled in Dreamweaver to any sort of decent standard.
Most web developers with several years under their belt would consider Dreamweaver sites to be a travesty and not worth the hard disk space they reside on.
You can learn HTML here:
http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp
As well as lots of other things you will need to know. From that site you should be able to make sites of a decent standard from scratch rather than relying on crutches, i.e. Dreamweaver.
Steve Cool
16th June 2009, 22:21
I would not purchase DreamWeaver. I made my first site by hand-coding all the HTML, CSS and producing the design in Photoshop. This work is too complicated to be handled in Dreamweaver to any sort of decent standard.
Most web developers with several years under their belt would consider Dreamweaver sites to be a travesty and not worth the hard disk space they reside on.
You can learn HTML here:
http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp
As well as lots of other things you will need to know. From that site you should be able to make sites of a decent standard from scratch rather than relying on crutches, i.e. Dreamweaver.
I'm sure most of us agree that a web site is about selling not being a Designers visual wet dream.:| Am i wrong?
Dreamweaver is fine, even a fridgeman like me has learned to drive it.
Before you go peeking, no not that one!.....
Steve
david64
16th June 2009, 23:28
I'm sure most of us agree that a web site is about selling not being a Designers visual wet dream.:| Am i wrong?
Dreamweaver is fine, even a fridgeman like me has learned to drive it.
Before you go peeking, no not that one!.....
Steve
I would agree that in most cases a web site is about selling or building something; and you are right, a design can hinder this by being too artistic. However, sites produced in Dreamweaver WYSIWYG will always be inferior to site built by hand. Sites built in Dreamweaver tend to lack scalability, refinement and cross-browser computability. They also tend wrought with botches and text-book errors.
If you are learning to build websites, you might as well learn how to do it from the ground up. It will probably take the same ammount of time as learning Dreamweaver and will give you unlimited control over sites you build whereas building them in Dreamweaver will only let you build them in the confindes of the applications Unless you know how to use the code view but, in which case you might as well just build the whole thing in that.
NetwiseHosting
17th June 2009, 00:25
I am in agreement with most of the posters so far. Dreamweaver, whilst looking very appealing with its nice GUI and advanced features, will infact produce code imperfections and you will find yourself wrestling with it to output exactly what you want/need.
You would be far better off learning the basics of web coding with the simple languages, and refer back to online guides and tutorials for the tricky more complex parts. Over time you will learn all you need. This can all be strung together in a raw text editor like Notepad, or a non-intrusive coding editor.
Its all about knowing what your doing, and more importantly fully understanding what it is you are putting onto the web. This will lead you onto better success, and build on your range of skills in the future.
U9Design
17th June 2009, 00:52
I do all my coding by hand. I find Dreamweaver irritable. I would prefer FrontPage over it any day.
labcreative
17th June 2009, 08:07
I learnt to hand code HTML/XHTML (and ColdFusion later on) but I wouldn't be without Dreamweaver. The list of features which help make my job as a designer/developer easier is just huge.
I definitely recommend learning to code by hand first though. There's nothing like being able to dip into the code to tweak things manually and it will certainly help you produce better websites.
jadexsoln
17th June 2009, 08:11
Agree with most of the posts above - hand coding is the way to go rather than the bloated code often produced by products like Dreamweaver. Get yourself a good HTML/CSS editor (I use BlueFish, available for Linux & MAC) and learn HTML/CSS properly - it will help you in the long run.
los_design
17th June 2009, 08:42
I am just about to purchase dreamweaver to start building websites,part time, What sort of costs are involved if i buy a template for £40.00ish
I know i have to buy my domain and hosting but is there any other costs or is it just my time:rolleyes:
If you are going to customise your template, you may well need to photoshop/fireworks too.
Depends where you are getting your template from of course, but you should be able to view what software you need by viewing the details of the template.
HTH
:D
los_design
17th June 2009, 08:45
I would agree that in most cases a web site is about selling or building something; and you are right, a design can hinder this by being too artistic. However, sites produced in Dreamweaver WYSIWYG will always be inferior to site built by hand. Sites built in Dreamweaver tend to lack scalability, refinement and cross-browser computability. They also tend wrought with botches and text-book errors.
If you are learning to build websites, you might as well learn how to do it from the ground up. It will probably take the same ammount of time as learning Dreamweaver and will give you unlimited control over sites you build whereas building them in Dreamweaver will only let you build them in the confindes of the applications Unless you know how to use the code view but, in which case you might as well just build the whole thing in that.
Could not disagree more.
Yes, hand coding is great for people like me (qualified web app dev) and you, but for a guy wanting to start at home? The learning curve is way too steep to be effective anytime soon IMHO.
As for scaleable issues, no way. The only restriction you will find when developing in DW is your skillbase.
You can develop any site up to any standard in DW as long as you know how.
JMTC
;)
However, sites produced in Dreamweaver WYSIWYG will always be inferior to site built by hand.
With respect this is just not true and I regulalry hear comments like this from people who may not be familiar with newer versions of DW, which can actually help you to produce fully validated code. I use DW CS3 on a daily basis and it is a great tool when you have learned how to use it. Actually learning how to use it is however a serious commitment.
fisicx
17th June 2009, 08:49
I do all my coding by hand. I find Dreamweaver irritable. I would prefer FrontPage over it any day.
I've just spilt tea down my shirt. You can't be serious about preferring FrontPage?
The latest versions of Dreamweaver I agree are pants but go back to DW4 and it's a much simpler application and you can pick it up for a tenner on ebay.
david64
17th June 2009, 21:45
With respect this is just not true and I regulalry hear comments like this from people who may not be familiar with newer versions of DW, which can actually help you to produce fully validated code. I use DW CS3 on a daily basis and it is a great tool when you have learned how to use it. Actually learning how to use it is however a serious commitment.
I am not familiar with new versions of Dreamweaver. Last time I saw it in use was in about 2004-2005. If your site is built purely on Dreamweaver, I would say it does look a lot better than it used to. However, there are still things that I would not be happy with like empty p and b tags, unnecessary use of html entities and use of br.
If its going to be a big commitment to learn DW, I would just learn hand-coding HTML and CSS.
there are still things that I would not be happy with like empty p and b tags, unnecessary use of html entities and use of br.
Why would you not be happy with this? The time it takes to correct them can be better spent. An empty p tag never caused any of my clients any problem. I am too busy thinking about how my client's websites can generate more traffic to be concerned about things that have zero effect on performance. Forget about the fine detail and think about what you are doing for your clients.
HOMESAFE
18th June 2009, 19:02
I have installed the 30 trial from dreamweaver,At the moment i use office live to create my sites,I think they look ok as well.
NetwiseHosting
18th June 2009, 19:28
I guess it really comes down to what your site is used for. If you're a tradesman who just fancies dipping into the world of online presence for displaying contact details and maybe some simple information, then a basic knocked-up Frontpage/Dreamweaver site will do fine.
But if you deal primarily or exclusively online, your website is your shopfront. It has to be of the highest quality, similar to the quality expected of a good shop on the highstreet. It cant be hashed together without any real knowledge of sitebuilding if you want to attract a solid customer base.
HOMESAFE
18th June 2009, 20:36
Right,I have my trial and this is a lot more involved than i thought, If I buy a template from herehttp://www.templatemonster.com/ will it save
me a lot of time?
david64
18th June 2009, 20:39
Right,I have my trial and this is a lot more involved than i thought, If I buy a template from herehttp://www.templatemonster.com/ will it save
me a lot of time?
I'd recommend using a free template if you are just building the one site. You will probably find one you like for free. Google "free css templates". I have some free ones here:
http://semlabs.co.uk/journal/free-fluid-wordpress-themes-and-css-templates
los_design
18th June 2009, 20:42
Right,I have my trial and this is a lot more involved than i thought, If I buy a template from herehttp://www.templatemonster.com/ will it save
me a lot of time?
I sell and customise these templates on my main site so I can safely say YES.
If you wish to customise a site fully, have you grabbed the free photoshop trial as well? This will help you change button text etc a lot faster.
Also, are you grabbing a flash headered tp? If so, download flash too ;)
Regards
Daren
brownie
18th June 2009, 21:29
Why purchase a template at such an early stage?
Google "free dreamweaver templates", there are loads available for your early attempts.
los_design
19th June 2009, 08:25
Why purchase a template at such an early stage?
Google "free dreamweaver templates", there are loads available for your early attempts.
Spot on.
Also, if you are planning to use a TM template then why not download one of their FREE samples to see how you get on with it before you part with any cash.
This way you will not only see if you can work with it, but also what tools you will need to complete the job.
HTH
Regards
Daren
Beware of the restrictions on the use of free templates. Many of these are released under a creative commons license which means that the original designer must be credited on the finished website. Your clients may ask you to remove this credit (I would) and then you are stuffed.
32cardinalpoints
19th June 2009, 08:42
Dreamweaver isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be and it is a milion times better than Front Page. It is worth trying out the 30 day trial and if you like the software product, then go ahead and buy it.
You mentioned about buying a template design. The only problem with buying a template design for your website that it still requires a large amount of work if you decide you want to change images etc. You will also need a copy of a graphics package like Adobe Photoshop or Fireworks to edit the graphic template or else you may be paying out additional costs for amendments.
If you require further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.
los_design
19th June 2009, 08:56
Beware of the restrictions on the use of free templates. Many of these are released under a creative commons license which means that the original designer must be credited on the finished website. Your clients may ask you to remove this credit (I would) and then you are stuffed.
There may also be restrictions on using them in a commercial environment too.
This does NOT apply to purchased templates BTW.
:D
Incidentally there is a free, open source editor that is similar to Dreamweaver called NVU (http://www.net2.com/nvu/). I haven't actually tried it myself but I have heard that it's pretty good.
Obviously it won't do all that DW does but it may do enough for you?
los_design
19th June 2009, 10:08
Incidentally there is a free, open source editor that is similar to Dreamweaver called NVU (http://www.net2.com/nvu/). I haven't actually tried it myself but I have heard that it's pretty good.
Obviously it won't do all that DW does but it may do enough for you?
It is still around for download (I think) but it is no longer supported.
I used it when studying at uni and whilst it did not have all the bells and whistles of DW it did the job OK.
I would put it on a par with DW6. I am afraid it does not hold a candle to CS3+
DotNetWebs
19th June 2009, 10:13
Dreamweaver isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be and it is a milion times better than Front Page.
I should hope so. Front Page has long since been replaced by Expression Web which has quite a good reputation.
Regards
Dotty
beebo
21st June 2009, 12:14
Dreamweaver should only be used to create CSS templates for CMSs. If you don't know what a CSS is you shouldn't even consider buying it.
Dreamweaver used to be used for static sites. ie. one which wasn't updated often. However the static site is dead. SEO, search engine optimization (getting to the top of the Google listings) demands that sites be updated regularly; everyday if possible. Dreamweaver based sites don't make this easy for the non-technical. Slowly the CMS has taken over this role.
If you really want to learn how to develop a websites I recommend using a CMS. The top 3 free ones are Drupal, Joomla and Wordpress.
Drupal is the biggest pig to learn, Is the most flexible, suitable for running many sites on one server. Newspapers and big business use this.
Joomla is the most popular but has quirky logic. Amazing number of plugins that means your website can look incredible. Careful some plugins conflict. I tend to use this.
Wordpress - You can learn this and have your site up and running in a day. Best for beginners, but your site can look a bit bloggy.
If you are serious about running a business CMS are the only way to go. If you are serious about designing, CMSs need to be your foundation.
CMS for serious designing? I think not.
beebo
21st June 2009, 22:15
Dear Bdw,
I looked at your homepage and think you need to give CMSs a second look. They have come a long long way. Been down the Dreamweaver, handcoding paths. Design is only one factor in a successful webbusiness. This is one of my sites - cool****injapan dot com. It's gimmik heavy but that is because I'm experimenting with cloudfront and S3 on a cheapy shared server. The goal is cheap hosting with unlimited scalability. It's what every startup needs. If only it were possible with cashflow.
beebo
21st June 2009, 22:18
the site is coolsh1tinjapan dot com - replace the 1 with an i :p
I looked at your homepage and think you need to give CMSs a second look.
I ran your homepage through the W3C validator and it reported 118 errors and 116 warnings.
If you are serious about running a business CMS are the only way to go. If you are serious about designing, CMSs need to be your foundation.
If you are serious about running a business you have to be able to produce largely valid code for your clients whether you use a CMS, Dreamweaver or a plain text editor. It would seem that your CMS cannot do this.
fisicx
22nd June 2009, 08:00
Dreamweaver should only be used to create CSS templates for CMSs. If you don't know what a CSS is you shouldn't even consider buying it.
What a load of rubbish.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 08:38
Toucher - Of course it gives errors thro a w3c validator it's running thro cloudfront. You can't use cookie cutter tools to prove a point. It's like using an MOT to test an aircraft's roadworthyness.
Sorry but that is the way that the business is going. Static sites are dead. Web 2.0 has become the norm and web 3.0 is starting to emerge. Why? because it reduces the costs of starting a site and running a site. It also reduces the amount of technical knowledge required and allows for automatic scaleability.
EWD - If you are going to criticize make it constructive. Alternatively justify your opinion.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 08:43
As a bit of fun try running youtube thro the w3c validator - 237 errors 35 warnings :D
fisicx
22nd June 2009, 08:46
EWD - If you are going to criticize make it constructive. Alternatively justify your opinion.
Dreamweaver is an excellent tool for building brochure websites. You have dismissed static sites in favour of CMS but there are millions of well ranking stactic sites, some of which haven't been touched for years.
Furthermore, DW can be used to to create CMS templates and PHP files. What it's not very good at is CSS (it doesn't do shortcuts very well).
andysears
22nd June 2009, 08:56
Man there certainly is some utter tosh on here.
Frontpage?
CMS for serious designing?
Dreamweaver only for CSS templates?
Get real.
As for w3c validation PAH! If site does its job and makes money then b******s to it all.
So many hand coders *snigger*
So what next? someone going to say Firefox is a market leader?
beebo
22nd June 2009, 09:00
CMS templates are mostly layers of CSS.
I agree with you, Dreamweaver is good for making CMS templates. Have been using Dreamweaver since the 1st incantation over 12 years ago. However the scalability issue makes it a bad choice for a new webpage designer or new business. That was the point of the topic I think.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 09:20
Sigh Andy -
Another batch of constructive criticism. Coming back to the UK makes me squirm sometimes.
So the guy wants to be a PART-TIME webdesigner ......you reckon he should splash out 400 quid on Dreamwearweaver? go the whole hog and buy Creative Suite for a couple of grand? spend a couple of years learning to hand code? Or use a free beginner type CMS like Wordpress and have a half decent (scaleable)site up and running in half a day?
Beebo EWD expressed his opinion a bit more forcefully than I but I tend to agree with him. What you are saying makes no sense and it is likely to mislead people. It is just plain wrong.
Regarding validation, when a website does not validate properly this can adversely affect search engine optimisation. It also reflects the professionalism of the designer. For various reasons it is not always possible to have a website that fully validates but the target should always be zero errors and warnings.
Your CMS website has many errors and warnings as does YouTube but then SEO is not important to YouTube. Everyone already knows where to find it and it is owned by Google. I think they could possibly influence its position if they were so inclined. Don't you?
Or use a free beginner type CMS like Wordpress and have a half decent (scaleable)site up and running in half a day?
Are you suggesting that a web design business can be built on Wordpress? The problem here is that many people do not understand all that is involved in web design. For example web development, graphic design, search engine optimisation, marketing, customer liaison, support, accounting, tax matters and I could go on. Having the ability to put a "half decent" site up does not make anyone a web designer.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 10:01
BDW,
I agree there are a lot of things to being a webdesigner. The guy wants to be a part-time webdesigner tho. What cheap, quick tool which produces professional results would you suggest is a good starting point?
Incidently, put any term into google, see what comes out top, run it thro W3C tool. It is unlikely that it doesn't have errors. Google SEO doesn't equate to W3C rules it equates to Google analytic rules.
fisicx
22nd June 2009, 10:09
I agree there are a lot of things to being a webdesigner. The guy wants to be a part-time webdesigner tho. What cheap, quick tool which produces professional results would you suggest is a good starting point?
I would suggest that a CMS is not the best place to start if you want to learn webdesign. I agree that they are great if jou want to get a site up and running in a couple of hours but to create a decent template requires some knowledge of HTML/CSS. Which bring us back to dreamweaver. You don't have to spend £400, you can pick up a copy of DW4 for £10 on ebay, it's a much simpler beast than CS3 and is the ideal tool to learn the basics. I cetainly wouldn't attempt to learn webdesign by building CMS templates.
Google SEO doesn't equate to W3C rules
Correct - but I did not say that it did. I said that when a website does not validate properly this can adversely affect search engine optimisation. I stand by that.
chasd
22nd June 2009, 10:58
I am just about to purchase dreamweaver to start building websites,part time, What sort of costs are involved if i buy a template for £40.00ish
I know i have to buy my domain and hosting but is there any other costs or is it just my time:rolleyes:
There have been many comments in this thread, but I can't resist adding mine, lol!
Basically, there are LOTS of "web designers" - the market is flooded with amatures, like yourself, who think it is easy money. Sorry!
Although web page design and implementation looks easy, it isn't. Even if you are doing this for yourself to promote your business, you would be much better off paying an experienced, trained, competent company to do it for you - after all if you are relying on the site to sell your business and it looks amature, then your customers will think you are an amature too.
Regards dreamweaver.... lots of cash which could be spent elsewhere. Have a look at HTML-Tidy - good editor for HTML and it's free.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 12:47
I cetainly wouldn't attempt to learn webdesign by building CMS templates.
I agree, that would would be an advanced stage.
However whether you like it or not CMS sites are the fastest growing type of site out there. You are going to have to adapt. Wordpress is essentially a beginner CMS. However it can produce professional sites Wall Street journal Magazine is one http://magazine.wsj.com/. Sorry it's not w3c friendly (essentially irrelevent for SEO - use Google Analytics for UK, Yahoo tools for Japan, Baidu for China).
You might complain they are not very pure but.....
If you need lists of more examples mail me. Will also dig out ones for Joomla or Drupal if you want to see more advanced but free CMSs.
Might be worth making a new thread tho
fisicx
22nd June 2009, 12:55
You are missing the point, I don't have a problem with CMS and already produce wordpress templates. The OP asked about using dreamweaver and that is where we should be focussing. Even if they did set themselves up and install wordpress, unless they have a robust knowledge of HTML/CSS they wouldn't be able to create of amend a template.
If you want to learn how to design a website then using Dreamweaver is as good a place to start as anywhere else.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 13:02
I am just about to purchase dreamweaver to start building websites,part time, What sort of costs are involved if i buy a template for £40.00ish
I know i have to buy my domain and hosting but is there any other costs or is it just my time:rolleyes:
If you read the post he wasn't talking about designing websites but building them using templates.
However whether you like it or not CMS sites are the fastest growing type of site out there. You are going to have to adapt.
Actually I think it is you who may have to adapt. You are the first and only person I have heard who thinks that CMSs are the way forward for web design. Perhaps I am missing something but I suspect that many more of us have been kept in the dark about this revolution.
Like EWD I am fully aware of Wordpress, Joomla, et al but why would any want web designer want to use them with all their restrictions? These are essentially for home made websites done on the cheap (and I am not slagging them off). If indeed they are the fastest growing type of website then that will be because they are free. That does not make them the best solution.
beebo
22nd June 2009, 13:58
I am fully aware of Wordpress, Joomla, et al but why would any want web designer want to use them with all their restrictions? These are essentially for home made websites done on the cheap (and I am not slagging them off).
Doing on the cheap? That's what this forum is about, helping each other create a healthy profitable and functioning business. If Wordpress can be used be people at home and scaled up to big business like the Wall Street Journal, I would say that is an endorsement.
fisicx
22nd June 2009, 14:07
If Wordpress can be used be people at home and scaled up to big business like the Wall Street Journal, I would say that is an endorsement.
Except the WSJ dopesn't use wordpress. It's the WSJ Magazine - an entirely different part of the business: http://publisherblog.automattic.com/2008/11/10/wall-street-journal-magazine-wordpress/
32cardinalpoints
22nd June 2009, 14:22
I agree that there are thousands of people out there who claim to be able to design and put together websites. Lets face it everyone knows someone or someone's brother who can build a website.
If you do not choose the right web designer or company you could end up having a website looking like this one i have recently come across (it is a master class in web designing)
http://www.avacabtaxis.com/
fisicx
22nd June 2009, 14:31
Good grief, even Ling would baulk at that one.
pwaller30
23rd June 2009, 09:57
i find using DW easier. i'm already used to its code view and i although i do coding by hands, it helps using the prebuilt code-suggest and custom snippets right there. the find and replace command is also useful as it helps you speed up doing edits or placing some repeating codes. i like also the idea that DW can be used to create templates specially for large number of web pages. any tool can be put to good use depending on your choice but it really depends on how you maximize on using it.