Stop people stealing your knowledge!!!!

[estwig]

Me and Mrs estwig was just chatting about one job in particular, this is just one example of many.

Punter comes recommended to me and wants a loft conversion, he has already had various cowboys round full of sh*t telling him all sorts of rubbish about where his staircase should go and how the work should be done. I explain to him and his missus that the staircase in his particular house goes above the exisitng staircase, to maximise use of the available space, etc. I take them to see another loft we did almost exactly like his. Obviously after all this we are the ones to do the work, no arguments. The price we gave was very resonable, fancied this job.

Drove past his house yesterday and some other bodger is doing his loft, you can bet he is cheaper than me and you can bet the punter told him how to do it properly after picking my brain and seeing my work.


This has to be a problem faced by many people in business, how do you deal with it??

Are you understandably tight lipped and wary of punters stealing your knowledge???

Or do you take the risk, show off your knowledge in the hope of impressing the punter to win the work??

Or have you reached some kinda happy medium, between telling them enough to impress them, but not enough to do the work without you???


This has and will probably continue to be a perpetual problem for me and many tradesmen, be interesting to know how other business deal with the problem.

[Beachcomber]

It's usually a case of dangling the carrots for them to see but not to taste.

Divulge enough to impress the client, assure them of your competance and experience etc. but avoid revealing all of your cards. I tricky juggling act indeed with no real right or wrong ways to play it othe than feel for the situation and experience.

Trust your instincts is usually the best way to go.

[MH1]

I used to work in direct sales for fitted bathrooms for years, and everyone asked for a copy of the "plan" I would draw for them, showing all the dimensions etc.

I always refused, and explained they got the plan after placing the order, since any other salesperson following me would save a couple of hours of measuring and designing the bathroom, and could then undercut us accordingly.

Strangely enough my employers always wanted the designers to leave the plans if they didn't order, but then again my closing rate was double that of the average guys so they didn't push the point too much at the time.

[PointandStare]

Many a time we prepare and send out proposals only to find a few months later that the 'client' has gone elsewhere and used some or all of our ideas.
Most of the time it ends up they used their cousin or some '£99 a website' company.

Does it bother me? Well, yes that they can't be honest and just say 'no thanks' but also no as, if they rate a few hundred quid, or less, as the most they care to spend on one of the important elements of their company then I'm glad I'm not involved.

I say, move on and don't stress over it.

[sirearl]

Its a major problem at the jetski works.

People ring up asking what parts they need to fix there ski,then proceed to get the knowledge off us to fix it e.t.c.

we are thinking of starting a premium phone line for technical queries.

Its not that we mind helping people out,its more the time it takes to deal with these freebies.

Earl

[Comspec]

It happens all the time with us tbh.

We get punters in who ask us shedloads of questions, and get us to practically explain their potential new PC component by component.

They then take this knowledge to the major PCW or suchlike retailer and try to get something close to it.

Annoying, but we usually get our own back when they come to us after running into a problem or two ;)

[KM-Tiger]

It's some consolation to know that if that's how they behave you didn't want them as a client anyway.

As beachcomber says it's a fine line between presenting yourself well and giving away too much. But another thought is this: stop and think to yourself what information does that prospect need in order to place an order? Often it will be a lot less than you normally give.

[estwig]

I should add that we are always happy to help when we can, it's always good to help and show off your knowledge/skills. This conversely, contributes to our demise.

[sirearl]

I suppose one has to accept it as part of business.

you never know what the other person is thinking.

If we turned round and said we are not prepared to give that information,I expect any chance of a sale may go out the door.

and if we said we don't know the answer any chance of a sale may well go out the door.:D

catch 22.:eek:

Earl

[Matt1959]

I think you take it on the chin. Would the guy have placed an order under any other circumstances - probally not. For those potential clients you lose by working this way (if you were to get them at all) , you'll gain others that will be impressed by your openness and helpfulness. Once jaundice sets in and all customers become a pain, theres a danger it'll come across and you'll maybe start to lose work:|. I think this sort of thing with private punters is the nature of the beast really.....

[FireFleur]

Get them to sign NDAs, include hidden clauses to monitor the situation to see if any of the knowledge is being used :)

You don't want them, and if they do come to you eventually, well charge extra.

Knowledge is an interesting game. Something like SEO I tend to keep quiet on, apart from the obvious chore work.

For programming, well you need to understand the big picture to even gain benefit, so I am quite free with that, you are either about to stumble on it, or you will never get it.

General business stuff, again who cares that's just the game rules, but specific stuff tight lipped.

Oddly enough, I do give out graphic design tricks, but that's because I don't specialise there and had to learn it as an aside, so there I will be quite open.

So, is putting a stair to the attic in a logical place that much of a secret, I would have thought it is more like the Hayne's manuals where undo screw is the main element of expertise. I think you are giving them very little but showing you know what you are on about.

The components one is interesting, there the customer doesn't realise it is more complicated, highly specific and relational.

When I build a system, I will use the person who gives the best advice, in fact I make a point of it by asking if they want me to put the order through them. And I know a lot about computer parts, but if someone can add value then I value it.

[Will-man Rodders]

Taking a positive angle ... At least you had the opportunity to quote.

You will always loose some pitches; if you win them all then your prices are too low. If though this is a frequent outcome then ask .... Do you need to improve your 'sales closing' skills?

[estwig]

Taking a positive angle ... At least you had the opportunity to quote.

You will always loose some pitches; if you win them all then your prices are too low. If though this is a frequent outcome then ask .... Do you need to improve your 'sales closing' skills?

That's a good point, me is a miserable git at times.

All business starts at the opportunity to 'quote'

Nothing happesn until you quote, nothing at all!!!!

:)

[FireFleur]

The art of closing is interesting, and if you can close early best to do so, but a lot of people are wise to pure closers, and want to be reassured unfortunately those people can look a bit like knowledge grazers, so best to get a time of when you will hear from them about the close, then you know.

If it is a don't call us we will call you, then unlikely, so look to leave quickly, if it is a next day or later on in the day, give a little more. If they go we are pretty happy with going with you, add a bit extra and seal the deal.

[estwig]

The art of closing is interesting, and if you can close early best to do so, but a lot of people are wise to pure closers, and want to be reassured unfortunately those people can look a bit like knowledge grazers, so best to get a time of when you will hear from them about the close, then you know.

If it is a don't call us we will call you, then unlikely, so look to leave quickly, if it is a next day or later on in the day, give a little more. If they go we are pretty happy with going with you, add a bit extra and seal the deal.

This is good stuff and exactly what I try to do, some people are so cute at sucking information from you, it is hard to spot 'em.

[Burden]

I like to be quite open about things but this is something that does annoy me a lot both past and present.

Back when i used to be a Travel Agent :) there was one client who would call up and get a holiday priced... the norm you may think?? This guy was quite a character and wanted a specific 6 week holiday over 4 hotels, 4 internal flights, various things to do and prebooked before arrived and a full schedule set out.. also made some quite big demands.. everyone was happy enough to help but soon it got to the stage he was asking us that, finding out the route and details as it wasnt a standard 'package' holiday then going to piece it together online... mad £15,000 holidays although i wouldnt mind if he was taking me.. - Soon enough though he was back shortly after trying to get us to "fix" his holiday he was going on when he booked it all online on separate sites and one of the parts changed and it would no longer tie in with the route he set out... no ABTA to save him there..

Just wait till you get the call to go round and fix it cos the job wasnt done properly and the kids hanging through the ceiling.


From that point there are a few things i'm very tight lipped about now running my business.. Things from the soundproof studios the question always comes up of how are they constructed and how do i get them to be as nice sounding... all little tricks that set you apart from the other businesses... i never tell as its not the way you go down or thats told online.. it was built, taken apart, built then fixed about 10 times until it was properly the way i wanted.

[scribe]

I always tell a potential client that whoever does the job insist they are given a copy of the builders insurance and the builder provids references, also that they get what they pay for. If you want cheap, invariably you get it and it shows when the job is done .

[An Oasis]

A timely thread Keith and for what it’s worth I’m looking at pitching for a number of projects throughout the year to a large corporate entity.

They are looking for add-ons for corporate events and the pitch has to be persuasive i.e. a quick sales based summary but I’m buggered if I am going to give details away for someone else to take the ideas and run with them.

So they get the carrot but nothing more if they want the rest then they sign a NDA or nothing, it’s too easy to give everything away/

[Tej]

You win some, you lose some.
Don't change your selling methods. Most punters would not be able to direct the tradesmen to do the job.. ( even if you told them how).
More often than not, the punters come back.. to sort out the bodged job.

We get this quite a lot of the time.. and attitude is.. if thats the kind of punter.. we are better off without them.. spell trouble!!

You don't know what kind of problems that the alternative builder is going through:)

PS: don't lower your own standards.

[Rhyl Lightworks]

I would say be honest with them. In this particular case, tell them you realise the knowledge gained from you could be passed on to another builder, but why didn't that builder come up with this in the first place? Impress on them that that there could be unforeseen problems, which you would be in a much better position to sort out. If thy still go to a cheapskate anyway they will probably get a poorer standard of finish and deserve all they get.

Barrie

[vvaannmmaann]

We had quotes from four different builders for our house extension.Eventually went with the guy we liked the most.Not the cheapest one,but he actually listened to what we wanted.He did the job on time,and below his estimate.Everyone happy.

[CKG]

It the nature of the beast in domestic trades. It's so competative you have to give all you can to gain that all important trust.

We forget just how competative it all is because we are used to it.

Rest assured there will always be a gaggle of idiots hiding at the bottom of the pond either trying to discredit you or nick your work whatever you do or say.

[Emcar Vending]

Nobody steals my knowledge, I give it away free. I even have a small forum on my website for that purpose.

It pays dividends for me as I get customers through doing that and I don't spend a great of time doing it in the greater scheme of things..

[openmind]

It's the same principle on forums. I dedicate a proportion of every working day to post on forums. Most of the posts I make are discussion based as opposed to going for the sale so I suppose that's giving knowledge away for free.

Conversely this helps my company image and makes my services stick in peoples minds so for each customer I lose based on them using my knowledge with a competitor, I gain probably 3 x more through direct referrals so it's a balance I can live with...

[Chris Ashdown]

I would say be honest with them. In this particular case, tell them you realise the knowledge gained from you could be passed on to another builder, but why didn't that builder come up with this in the first place? Impress on them that that there could be unforeseen problems, which you would be in a much better position to sort out. If thy still go to a cheapskate anyway they will probably get a poorer standard of finish and deserve all they get.

Barrie

I think this reply is the best, You give them the full picture using your experience and the reasons why, and tell them you understand they may pass this on to other bidders, but it may be wise to just give the same information and see what solution they come up with on their own, before you judge them and their prices

[Wendy.Rule]

My experience is that there are a lot of builders that are - let's say :) - not the best, and whilst you did not get this job perhaps the customer may well mention you in the future as a little more expensive but professional when you gave the quote. So I think it is good general marketing to continue with this approach, IMHO. In the end if you deliver a good quality product/service with reasonable pricing, reputation will reign supreme.

[KateCB]

We have a similar problem - we sell to both trade and retail customers, and had a problem with one trade customer in particular who was sending their students to us to have the various types/weights/cuts of karate Gi explained - they then had fitting to get the best fit for them all of which took up 2 hours+ of our stafss time - at the end of all this the student went back to their instructor and told them what they wanted based on our fitting/experience/advice - the trade customer then bought at trade from us......we finally talked to this instructor and stated that we would not offer this service in future as they were literally taking the food from our mouths - not only were they taking 2 hours of our time PER STUDENT (they were sending 5 - 6 a week!) but then reducing our profit by selling to their student at reduced rates when they had purchased at trade - we asked that if they didn't want or need to make a profit (many work full time and teach part time as a hobby) then we would appreciate them sending the students to us to actually BUY at retail - this is our LIVING, not our hobby. if they wanted a fitting service in future, there would be a charge BEFORE the fitting commenced!

They don't send their students now - they may call with their height for a rough idea of 'what size' but that takes 2 minutes rather than 2 hours! :)

[Rainbow Chasers']

When they have stated what others have said, and you feel it is not right, just chuckle and state that it would be unproffessional to comment on another company. Just reassure then that the work would be completed, to a high standard with guarantee and pass building control without the all the problems associated with budget building. You could even snatch the deal by having a lower deposit, with incremented payments as you progress. Nothing like instilling doubt! lol!

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

We go in with the approach that you'll always get some people wasting your time, but they are in the minority, and you still have to give your best as you don't want to lose out on a job by not giving the potential customer your best shot.

Thankfully our 2 biggest time wasters have lived on the same road, so we now just refuse to see anybody from that road!!

The other thing I try and do is to build the quote up gradually. If I'm doing a custom design Victorian Floor tile pattern, I'll get a rough estimated cost based on one of the catalogue patterns. If that is in the right area, I'll progress a bit further, and get more feedback. And when the signs are right I'll then spend the hours working out the exact spec for them. But I've still wasted time doing that. Customers eh?

[maxine]

Think this is really difficult as on one hand you need to demonstrate experience, skills and knowlege as part of the sales process without showing your full hand. I think the closest you can get to it is to focus on the end product without getting dragged into how you will do everything in detail and that after sign up you will go through a full spec with them. Sometimes by that time though it's too late as the ideas have already been nicked!

It's hard for your trade as some punters enter into the sales process getting ideas and prices off all and sundry and then going with someone they like (or can bully) and give them the ideas and plans. I know as we have been on the receiving end :) Perhaps you can give the general concept but then stop and say that you will need to do xyz to check feasibility and demonstrate that you are different and stronger in some way with the methods to check feasibility - planting fear, uncertaintly and doubt in relation to your competitors as you go (be very subtle).

Consultancy is prime for this aswell as quite often you get a call to quote and some of that is content based not to detail but enough to give some ideas away. I seem to attract lots of idea-nickers. I had one old boss who actually used an entire presentation of mine when he moved to a new company without changing so much as the colours and passed the whole thing off as his own original work. Similar experience a few months ago with a consultant that I did some work for.

I was asked to give a price recenty for a "proof-of-concept" document outlining ideas to a problem and after a lot of thought I refused purely because I know they will nick the content and attempt to do in-house. If it works for them then they think themselves very clever and nicking it in the first place and if it doesnt work then they will rubbish your reputation. :) so stuff em :)

[estwig]

Bl**dy hell Max, you is one clever girl, you make me feel like I muddle through.

Gonna have to go away and think about this!!

Can you hear the coggs wiring, smell the smoke???


:)

[Comspec]

I can I can :)

Great post Maxine, but the 'subtle' bit will be lost on his nibs ;)

[maxine]

No I am really not clever. I get ideas nicked all the time and it drives me batty!!

but ... beep beep... is that your smoke alarm?

and I also think if you messed up your office you would be cleverer :)

[calciumtech]

Yes, someone on this forum been stealing my knowledge... :(