Sellers beware... Amazon.co.uk helps perpetuate fraud with their A-Z guarantee.

[zeone]

A warning to all sellers operating on Amazon.co.uk,
... Amazon.co.uk helps perpetuate fraud with their A-Z guarantee


Amazon's A-Z guarantee program is apparently designed to help buyers in cases where they have not received an item or they have received an item that is "not as described". Well, fraudulent buyers have found ways to exploit this scheme at seller's expense and not only is Amazon siding with the frauds, but they are helping them con small businesses whilst hiding behind the clause in their terms and conditions:
4. Amazon's right of recovery. Amazon retains the right to seek reimbursement from
the seller if it, in its sole discretion, decides to reimburse the buyer under the
terms of the Amazon A-z Guarantee described in clause C.1 or Amazon receives a
chargeback from the buyer's credit/debit card issuer for the amount of the buyer's
purchase from the seller.

Our story - we are a small business based in London. We sell on Amazon, eBay, Playtrade & Tazbar and have good histories with each.
We have been selling on Amazon.co.uk the longest (since 2006) and have noticed an increase in buyer fraud. This is what happened to us just this week and I wanted to alert
other small businesses operating on Amazon.co.uk of this:

30th March, 2009: We sold a buyer a used Playstation 3 console with all necessary accessories.
It was described as "Used - Good" and we even added a complementary bag.
Total sale price: £220.00 delivered.

1st April, 2009: The buyer contacted us to say that a USB charger for one of the controllers was missing from the "package".
There were 3 people who were present when the console was packed including myself. I had personally watched
each item being placed into the console travel bag - it really was packed & presented very well. We responded
to the buyer exactly where that cable had been packed and asked him to check.

1st April, 2009: The buyer filed an A-Z guarantee claim saying that the item was
"Not as described - Missing parts/components". We responded the above statement via Amazon.co.uk's online form.
We also told the buyer that if they were not happy with the purchase, they were welcome to return the goods
& provided the address (which is on the invoice, as are our T&Cs in accordance with DSR).
8th April, 2009: An empty C6 envelope is delivered to us via Royal Mail First Class Recorded delivery - it was signed for by our building mailroom staff. Puzzled, I keep this envelope in my desk drawer.

16th April, 2009: Amazon inform us that the buyer informed Amazon.co.uk that he has returned the Playstation 3 console via Royal Mail First Class Recorded Delivery for a full refund. He says that it was successfully delivered & signed for and provides a tracking number. This number corresponds to the envelope mentioned above. We relay the above information to Amazon.co.uk, scan the envelope and email the picture. The envelope was empty and cost £1.14 to send. For the record, a Playstation 3 console costs around 7KG and we had to courier the package and enhance the insurance to £210. Royal Mail's Recorded Delivery service insures up to £39.

21st April, 2009: Response from Amazon.co.uk, "We will contact the buyer regarding the return of the item and request proof of shipping which should show the weight of the item at the time it was shipped. If the buyer can produce a receipt that shows the order was sent back to you with the correct address and shipping weight you could be held responsible for the claim."

10th May, 2009: Follow-up from Amazon.co.uk, "The buyer has provided us with a shipping receipt that shows that the return was sent to your address with a weight of 6.030 kg. The receipt also shows it was shipped on 07/04/09 and the cost was GBP 14.57. As they have proven that the item was shipped back to you we will need you to issue them a full refund. If you need a copy of the receipt we would suggest that you contact the buyer directly as we are not able to send attachments through our claims system. Please issue a full refund for this buyer within the next two business days. Failure to do so may result in a debit to your Amazon.co.uk Payments account."

11th May, 2009: We reiterated to Amazon.co.uk that the console had not been returned and that the buyer had sent them a fake scan. We asked that they request the original of the receipt from the buyer - which he buyer would undoubtedly be unable to provide as that tracking number corresponds to an envelope. I pointed out that it had taken the buyer almost 3 weeks to respond to a request for a receipt and that he claims to have sent a £210 item via a service that insures it to £39.

11th May, 2009: (One business day after Amazon.co.uk had said that they would allow two) Amazon.co.uk issued the buyer a full refund of £220 from our account. They now no longer respond to any emails regarding the issue.

We have received legal advice regarding this issue and will pursue the buyer for the funds - the case may end up in court. Amazon.co.uk's T&C protect them from being sued over the matter - however, I feel that they cannot be allowed to rob people of their money with no repercussions. We are considering approaching BBC Watchdog about this issue and would like to invite any other businesses who have been through a similar case, to share their stories too - perhaps we can all put something together?
For any other businesses operating on the site, please be wary of A-Z guarantee claims & remember that Amazon.co.uk have little / no regard for their sellers/merchants.

Thank you for reading.

[stevemac]

If you feel a crime has been committed, I would get in touch with the police & have them investigate. Fraud is illegal & neither the purchaser nor Amazon will be able to hide behind whatever rules they have set for themselves.

[zeone]

If you feel a crime has been committed, I would get in touch with the police & have them investigate. Fraud is illegal & neither the purchaser nor Amazon will be able to hide behind whatever rules they have set for themselves.

Amazon.co.uk have iron-clad Terms and Conditions. There is no way that we can challenge them on those and the FSB don't advise it either. We are going to report the buyer to the local police and see if they can help and also begin court proceedings to recover the cost of the PS3.

[quikshop]

Take the buyer to the small claims court, I've done the same in the past to fraudsters who abuse the chargeback system.

Also report Amazon to trading standards, it sounds like they might be infringing on UK law which is a common practice of large US businesses (eBay / PayPal are the usual suspects for this).

Best of luck anyway, its about time the playing field was levelled between consumer and retailer.

[stevemac]

From your story above, the current Amazon system would seem wide open to abuse. I would be surprised if other sellers haven't also fallen victim.

[zeone]

From your story above, the current Amazon system would seem wide open to abuse. I would be surprised if other sellers haven't also fallen victim.

I would be surprised too. A Google search has revealed similar stories about amazon.com, but I have yet to find any on amazon.co.uk. If there are any other UK companies who have been through the same thing and maybe have already registered a case with Trading Standards, do let us know, as perhaps we can add strength to your case/quote you in ours?

The worst part is that the "buyers" are also allowed to simply get away with it and can continue to repeat the scam. If there was a website where sellers who have been victims to fraudulent chargebacks could publish the fraud's details, then it could potentially protect future sellers. The unfortunate thing is that it would be open to misuse. There could also potentially be negative legal repercussions.

[KateCB]

Wow - I would go to Watch dog AND the Police! That just out and out robbery and Amazon are aiding and abetting! PLEASE keep us posted on the outcome, this is just so shocking!

[zeone]

We'll know on Monday 25th May whether we're taking this further (if the "buyer" does not respond to our pre-advice) - so I will update then.

[stevemac]

I'll be interested to hear how you get along with this.

I'm no legal expert but I've been to the small claims court several times, representing one of my previous employers. Never 'lost' a case either :D

If you do decide to prosecute, it may be worth asking the mods to move this thread to the 'legal' section of the forum.

[urban33ltd]

It must be difficult for Amazon to be in the middle of this to...if the customer has proof of delivery then what can they do.

I agree its not right and I certainly wouldn't be happy but its one of the problems when dealing with big companies they are to big and they don't care about sellers, just about buyers like ebay do.

You will never win with them so I wouldn't waste your time, your better of putting your energy into your own websites thats what I have done!

Stuart

[FireFleur]

It is something to be aware of, but that is how these places have to operate.

I have had cause to get in contact with Amazon customer service, and they don't just roll over, they do encourage a dialogue with the customer and the seller.

The problem is the people who do set out to abuse the system, they know the line through it, and perhaps Amazon are a little slow to get a fairer system, or this is just the evolutionary point of Amazon.

Is it wise to sell on Amazon, well yes if you want to launch something, and understand the risks, but day to day selling on it, perhaps not wise.

And maybe that is a good thing, Amazon is large, and no one really wins if some organisation gets too large. For quite some time Amazon operated at a loss, and I would shop on Amazon to do my bit if you will, good concept deserves to be around and good prices.

But over the years Amazon has changed, and it is trying to swallow everything up, so now I shop around, what I cannot understand is why people sell lower on Amazon than their own site, that is silly, and it stops me bookmarking their site to buy from.

Sure I will buy on price for the exact same item generally. So, to beat Amazon you have to do it on price, but don't do it on the market place forever get your own site and do it.

[zeone]

It must be difficult for Amazon to be in the middle of this to...if the customer has proof of delivery then what can they do.


That's what I thought... at first. So then I suggested that they ask the buyer to mail them the original receipt - which is what credit card companies would do (I believe). Their response was to debit our account. Incidentally, I got an email from Amazon.co.uk last night after asking them (for the 2nd/3rd time) to forward the image that the buyer had sent them - you know, the "evidence" that they had used to "decide" the case (which they for some reason couldn't forward via email). I gave them our fax number & postal address. Their response:

"Greetings from Amazon.co.uk.

As mentioned previously, we have reviewed the buyer's claim and the information you
provided. We have determined that this A-to-z Guarantee claim will remain unchanged.


We understand that you may not agree with this decision, but we will not be able to
assist you further with this claim and there will be no further response to your
e-mail messages regarding this transaction.

Thank you for selling with Amazon.co.uk.


---
Ruth
Account Specialist
A-to-z Guarantee Program"

Sigh.

[Robert Wheeler]

Unfortunately it would not be possible to refer this matter to Trading Standards as Amazon.co.uk is registered in Switzerland, where they have no jurisdiction.

I would also say, there are a *lot* of holes in Amazon's contracts. I can show you things in the Amazon Advantage contract that seem to be endorsing theft of rights.

[Paddymcc]

Had a similair thing happen to myself through ebay and paypal.

Buyer was supposed to return a laptop and instead sent an argos catalogue and ink cartridge lol. Called paypal about it who were about to issue a refund as i 'signed' for the laptop.

Ended up going to police to have it checked and got a crime reference number. In the end paypal sided with me.

A month or so later i got a call from the police man handling the case who informed me that the laptop must have been taken out of the box at the sorting office and changed over which i find hard to believe.

Anyway in the end i was happy i still had my money.

[zeone]

Unfortunately it would not be possible to refer this matter to Trading Standards as Amazon.co.uk is registered in Switzerland, where they have no jurisdiction.

Somehow, I'm not surprised about that - Amazon.co.uk are so brazen that it figures they're not regulated by anyone. Although, I should have thought that as they operate in the UK & have a UK address, someone should be able to do something. If Watchdog highlight the story, then I am sure it will force them to make changes to their process. Though I gather the Watchdog just did a story on Amazon (albeit a different kind of story); who knows if they'll investigate another...

Had a similair thing happen to myself through ebay and paypal.

Buyer was supposed to return a laptop and instead sent an argos catalogue and ink cartridge lol. Called paypal about it who were about to issue a refund as i 'signed' for the laptop.

Ended up going to police to have it checked and got a crime reference number. In the end paypal sided with me.

A month or so later i got a call from the police man handling the case who informed me that the laptop must have been taken out of the box at the sorting office and changed over which i find hard to believe.

Anyway in the end i was happy i still had my money.

Firstly, glad to hear that you had luck - obviously Paypal care a little more about their merchants than Amazon do. Though your "buyer" was a little more underhanded than ours, considering that an Argos catalog weighs quite a bit. The "buyer" in our case sent us an empty letter envelope - yet forged a receipt (according to Amazon.co.uk) that says otherwise. That is far more incriminating and allows little room for benefit of the doubt (like your Police officer seems to have given the "buyer" in your case). If the Police act on our complaint, I should think that our "buyer" would be in quite a bit of trouble - as I doubt this is the first time he's done something like this.

[Rainbow Chasers']

This is becoming more and more common by the day with most of the online auction sites, it started when ebay brought out the buyer friendly regs, and others followed suit. It gets abused the same way, and there is nothing the seller can do!

It appears that these companies are not interested as they just want to sell space - and there are always plenty of mugs getting on the escalator so they have no morals when it comes to service - they just want the fees! It really would be poor business sense, as without sellers they have no market - but unfortunately they are of a size that unless there is a mass departure of sellers, then they have little to worry about.

I once had a mail from an ebay rep state 'If you don't want to be ripped off, don't sell on ebay! That is what we do - we are here to make money and we do that well' That left me quite shocked, don't know if he still works there - but at least he was honest!

[Blush]

That is appallingWe have only just started selling on Amazon so shall keep an eye on this.
I would take things further though. At the end of the day its theft isn't it?

[zeone]

It appears that these companies are not interested as they just want to sell space - and there are always plenty of mugs getting on the escalator so they have no morals when it comes to service - they just want the fees! It really would be poor business sense, as without sellers they have no market - but unfortunately they are of a size that unless there is a mass departure of sellers, then they have little to worry about.

Tell me about it - Amazon have actually charged us £5.00 for giving the refund - a fee they call "refund commission" - talk about insult to injury! They really just don't give a damn at all... I think sellers are just icing on the cake for Amazon. Ebay on the other hand, I would have thought they would have been a little more seller-friendly.

[justintime]

Good luck with your case Zeone, the buyer should not be allowed to get away with this. With luck the Police will prosecute and Im 99% certain you will win in court.

[zeone]

Just wanted to update this thread after mine & my colleague's visit to Colindale police station. We waited about 2 hours to see an officer - only to be told that apparently it's a civil matter & that (long story short) there's no criminality involved. I was quite surprised, but my colleague explained to me that it would apparently be too much paperwork for them to investigate the case! So much for protect & serve, eh?

[Idontbuy]

Well thats awfull Zeone, i have seen some scams in my time and this one takes the biscuit, i would say its a proffesinal gang that will rent somewhere and hit as many people as possible before moving on.
Have you tried to ring Amazon at all i should say you have but we had problems at Xmas and spoke to a chap and he got it resolved the next day, but this case is diffrent to ours.
Hope you get this sorted and the people get caught.
Take care
Pete

[quikshop]

The only way you will get anywhere with this is to turn it into a bigger public issue, perhaps through BBC's Watchdog.

I wouldn't be too critical of the Police, they are not resourced to fight cyber-crime with the exception of so-called bigger fish.

[rd555]

you can't let them get away with this.



Amazon Business development
0208 636 9252

Amazon Customer service (get them to call you for free)
help - top right
contact us - bottom right
phone tab
contact seller support - bottom link
by phone tab
call me

they call you - its free



definitely call watchdog

i cant post a url because of some stupid forum rule

watchdog(at)bbc.co.uk

====================

Send your story to Watchdog and it could feature in an upcoming programme.

If you have a story you'd like Watchdog to investigate, we'd love to hear from you. From the drop-down menu below, choose the subject heading your story best fits into (or select Miscellaneous if you're not sure), then fill out the form leaving details of your story.
We may wish to contact you to discuss your story further, so please don't forget to fill out the form leaving your email address or contact phone number.
If you have problems using the form below, you can email your story to

You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more. the email is on there site


Write to Watchdog

You can write to us, at Watchdog, MCG A6, Media Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7TG.
Text Watchdog

While the programme is live on air (between 7.30pm and 8pm on Mondays), you can text your comments and thoughts to us. Start your message with the letters WD and send it to 83199. Texts are charged at standard rates.
Disclaimer

Any details provided here will not be passed outside the BBC or its agents and will only be used to contact you about your story or comment. Your details will be stored securely on our database which is only accessible for researchers working on Watchdog and other BBC Consumer Unit programmes. Because we receive so many emails, faxes, letters and phone calls, we're unable to respond personally to every one. However, all correspondence will be read by our research team and if we're able to pursue your complaint, a researcher from the Watchdog team will contact you.

[zeone]

Thank you rd555 - just gave the Amazon Business Development team a call & the lady I spoke to advised me to open a case via our account... Not sure how that's going to pan out, but she assured me that she'd be writing a follow up email to support.

We will approach Watchdog as a last resort, should the court route fail. I have no doubt that we will be able to prove our case to the judge, but we've been advised that getting our money back is another issue.

To our amazement, the "buyer" has submitted a defence to our claim via the courts. The sheer audacity of it astounds me. Myself and one of the staff members present on the day shall be going to court to put the case forward. The buyer refers to the "copy" of the receipt and we've requested that he bring the original receipt via the court. Hopefully that will highlight to the judge that the reason he is brandishing a copy, is because the original will prove that he is lying.

Thanks again for the info & support :)

[rd555]

glad to be of service. :)

I still recon you should email watch dog. it would take 2 seconds. And companies sometimes quickly solve problems if watchdog run a feature.

could be a fast way of getting your money back.

Your initial description of what happened is concise, and i think people would be interested in a story like this. You are a trader, but you could have been Joe blogs selling his PlayStation because he's short of cash. £220 is a lot of money to get conned so blatantly out of.

Let me know how you get on.

[zeone]

For anyone wanting to know the outcome of this case... On 11/09/09 - we took the buyer to small claims court and won - cost of PS3 & damages.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to the thread for your advice and support :)

[rd555]

RESULT !!! YAY!!!:):)

interesting that Amazon didn't help you. Or did they in the end?

[zeone]

RESULT !!! YAY!!!:):)

interesting that Amazon didn't help you. Or did they in the end?

Thanks, rd555 :)

No Amazon didn't help - they couldn't care less. Crippling small businesses that depend on them is what they do best. High volume sellers = competition to them. Once we highlighted the issue to them, they restricted our account and froze our funds. Which was expected - thankfully there was only about £100 in there.

Word of advice to anyone selling on Amazon - make sure they don't have too much of your money at any given period in time; they like to freeze it (it's an interest free loan to them!)

See this rant about Amazon.com from other sellers:


http://www.davepit.com/my-amazon-seller-central-rant/

[justintime]

Excellent news. Have you let Amazon know the outcome of the court case? Its one in the eye for them.

[zeone]

Excellent news. Have you let Amazon know the outcome of the court case? Its one in the eye for them.

Yes, I have - awaiting their response. Right now, tbh I just want my £100 back - then we can move on. I have nothing but expletives for Amazon - the way they treat their sellers is ridiculous!

[Burden]

well done Zeone! glad to hear it. one for the small guys!

Did it cost you money to go through all the processes to get the money back (courts etc)

I take it your not going back on Amazon :D

[zeone]

well done Zeone! glad to hear it. one for the small guys!

Did it cost you money to go through all the processes to get the money back (courts etc)

Gosh, yes. Money and time I'll never get back! The fee (about £50 if I remember correctly) is passed onto the defendant and the time you can make up in damages if you win. You just need to quantify it down to the last penny.

In hindsight, I wouldn't have bothered, but tbh I was a mixture of shocked/appauled/angry - and I wanted justice dammit!!

Even though I got it in the end, it's all so bitter-sweet because of Amazon.


I take it your not going back on Amazon :D

:D:D:D

[8420PR]

Good to see it worked out in the end. Did you let Amazon know the result, and did they offer any comments?

If you put yourself in Amazon or ebay/paypal's position, I don't think there is much more they can do to stop these things happening. At the end of the day they are caught in the middle between buyer and seller, and with both saying different stories I can imagine it must be a nightmare.

Ultimately, they have a clear policy to protect their business which is to side with the buyer subject to certain reasonable conditions. This is not very far away from DSR laws, and makes sense as they belive they have to offer protection to buyers in order to get the business. Amazon have obviously asked themselves if they want the fraudsters to be buyers or sellers on their marketplace, and chosen the obvious answer.

[Danny@BFC]

good read thanks for sharing....the right result in the end! although it shouldnt have got that far

[apple team]

we are a small business selling game consoles and cameras. We sell on Amazon and eBay, and have good feedbacks. Similar buyer frauds happened to us recently.

1) buyer A bought a camera with lenses from us. Weeks later he emailed us and claimed that he only received the lenses, and the camera body was missing.

2)buyer B bought a wii console(including game wii sports), one week later, he emailed and said that he only received the game not the console.

3) similar cases keeps coming

How are those possible? We have all the receipt clearly shown the weight when we posted the items. We have started to make claims with the delivery company. However, I personally do not believe the high rate of similar problems that encountered. buyers are really misuse the terms and conditions. And amazon does nothing to help the seller.

Really disappointed with amazon and some of the shameless buyers we encountered.:(

[dingbat]

Well done for winning your case.

I would add that Watchdog are no use since they back the consumer and the business is always evil. And that's why the likes Amazon, Ebay etc will always err on the side of the consumer because disgruntled consumers make news. Businesses being ripped off by consumers don't.

[betty22]

A warning to all sellers operating on Amazon.co.uk,
... Amazon.co.uk helps perpetuate fraud with their A-Z guarantee


Amazon's A-Z guarantee program is apparently designed to help buyers in cases where they have not received an item or they have received an item that is "not as described". Well, fraudulent buyers have found ways to exploit this scheme at seller's expense and not only is Amazon siding with the frauds, but they are helping them con small businesses whilst hiding behind the clause in their terms and conditions:
4. Amazon's right of recovery. Amazon retains the right to seek reimbursement from
the seller if it, in its sole discretion, decides to reimburse the buyer under the
terms of the Amazon A-z Guarantee described in clause C.1 or Amazon receives a
chargeback from the buyer's credit/debit card issuer for the amount of the buyer's
purchase from the seller.

Our story - we are a small business based in London. We sell on Amazon, eBay, Playtrade & Tazbar and have good histories with each.
We have been selling on Amazon.co.uk the longest (since 2006) and have noticed an increase in buyer fraud. This is what happened to us just this week and I wanted to alert
other small businesses operating on Amazon.co.uk of this:

30th March, 2009: We sold a buyer a used Playstation 3 console with all necessary accessories.
It was described as "Used - Good" and we even added a complementary bag.
Total sale price: £220.00 delivered.

1st April, 2009: The buyer contacted us to say that a USB charger for one of the controllers was missing from the "package".
There were 3 people who were present when the console was packed including myself. I had personally watched
each item being placed into the console travel bag - it really was packed & presented very well. We responded
to the buyer exactly where that cable had been packed and asked him to check.

1st April, 2009: The buyer filed an A-Z guarantee claim saying that the item was
"Not as described - Missing parts/components". We responded the above statement via Amazon.co.uk's online form.
We also told the buyer that if they were not happy with the purchase, they were welcome to return the goods
& provided the address (which is on the invoice, as are our T&Cs in accordance with DSR).
8th April, 2009: An empty C6 envelope is delivered to us via Royal Mail First Class Recorded delivery - it was signed for by our building mailroom staff. Puzzled, I keep this envelope in my desk drawer.

16th April, 2009: Amazon inform us that the buyer informed Amazon.co.uk that he has returned the Playstation 3 console via Royal Mail First Class Recorded Delivery for a full refund. He says that it was successfully delivered & signed for and provides a tracking number. This number corresponds to the envelope mentioned above. We relay the above information to Amazon.co.uk, scan the envelope and email the picture. The envelope was empty and cost £1.14 to send. For the record, a Playstation 3 console costs around 7KG and we had to courier the package and enhance the insurance to £210. Royal Mail's Recorded Delivery service insures up to £39.

21st April, 2009: Response from Amazon.co.uk, "We will contact the buyer regarding the return of the item and request proof of shipping which should show the weight of the item at the time it was shipped. If the buyer can produce a receipt that shows the order was sent back to you with the correct address and shipping weight you could be held responsible for the claim."

10th May, 2009: Follow-up from Amazon.co.uk, "The buyer has provided us with a shipping receipt that shows that the return was sent to your address with a weight of 6.030 kg. The receipt also shows it was shipped on 07/04/09 and the cost was GBP 14.57. As they have proven that the item was shipped back to you we will need you to issue them a full refund. If you need a copy of the receipt we would suggest that you contact the buyer directly as we are not able to send attachments through our claims system. Please issue a full refund for this buyer within the next two business days. Failure to do so may result in a debit to your Amazon.co.uk Payments account."

11th May, 2009: We reiterated to Amazon.co.uk that the console had not been returned and that the buyer had sent them a fake scan. We asked that they request the original of the receipt from the buyer - which he buyer would undoubtedly be unable to provide as that tracking number corresponds to an envelope. I pointed out that it had taken the buyer almost 3 weeks to respond to a request for a receipt and that he claims to have sent a £210 item via a service that insures it to £39.

11th May, 2009: (One business day after Amazon.co.uk had said that they would allow two) Amazon.co.uk issued the buyer a full refund of £220 from our account. They now no longer respond to any emails regarding the issue.

We have received legal advice regarding this issue and will pursue the buyer for the funds - the case may end up in court. Amazon.co.uk's T&C protect them from being sued over the matter - however, I feel that they cannot be allowed to rob people of their money with no repercussions. We are considering approaching BBC Watchdog about this issue and would like to invite any other businesses who have been through a similar case, to share their stories too - perhaps we can all put something together?
For any other businesses operating on the site, please be wary of A-Z guarantee claims & remember that Amazon.co.uk have little / no regard for their sellers/merchants.

Thank you for reading.

thanks for the information:)

[leolouis]

I was selling an item on Amazon as an individual, never even got the payment for it, even after 3 weeks, i contact them about they did not say much other than the cash is in their account, their staff are terrible as well.

Company's like this won't last if they continue to be like this, its stealing, Amazons bosses need to be fined or sentence in jail, for fraud.

[AndyP]

I was selling an item on Amazon as an individual, never even got the payment for it, even after 3 weeks, i contact them about they did not say much other than the cash is in their account, their staff are terrible as well.

Company's like this won't last if they continue to be like this, its stealing, Amazons bosses need to be fined or sentence in jail, for fraud.

Oh for goodness sake, don't be ridiculous!

[leolouis]

I am not being ridiculous I have been having problems with them, they are terrible their payments take too long.

[AndyP]

I am not being ridiculous I have been having problems with them, they are terrible their payments take too long.

If you are going to make statements such as this then at least give the FULL details of what has happened and not the edited highlights to suit your needs.

Amazon, for all it's faults, does not withhold funds without some reason and I suspect that they have a reason for withholding yours....but to suggest that Amazon managers should be prosecuted or even go to jail for something like this is plain silly.

[leolouis]

Ok, Andy, why said that was because of frustration it has caused...

Ok this what happened; I sold the fallowing item; £82.14 1 Adobe Dreamweaver CS4 Student Edition (PC DVD).

My bank account info and address registered with them is correct, i have done business with them times before.


They said;

Dear Leo Louis,

Thank you for contacting us at Amazon.co.uk Marketplace with your enquiry
regarding the disbursement of funds to your bank account.

I have checked your seller account and see that the funds for order
have already been initiated to your payments account.

Please log in the URL and confirm the same.


Any available funds credited to your Seller Account will automatically be
disbursed on a fortnightly basis.

------------------------------------

I did this and i am still waiting a response from them. The point is I think its terrible that some people have go though this.

[AndyP]

1. I can't really see what the issue actually is.
2. Did you not read the terms and conditions before selling? They are pretty clear.
3. The item that you sold definitely falls into the "be wary and watch" category so this may be a reason for withholding funds.
4. As you haven't given any dates I really cannot comment as to the speed of funds release.
5. If you have done business with Amazon before and not experienced any issues surely that shows you that under normal circumstances the internal systems work, indicating that there is something different about this particular sale.
6. This sounds like an individual sale though, rather than a business..... is your grief seriously centred around one sale for one piece of software? If you are or represent a business (given that this is a business forum) surely your time would be better spent focussing on the bigger picture as a delay in thes funds release for one sale probably won't stop the world revolving.

[Mister B]

I agree with Andy...there's a perfectly simple solution...don't sell on Amazon.

We trade on Amazon and despite the strict rules, (which are there for a reason I hasten to add,) it more than pays it's way.

Mister B

[FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper]

Glad to see the OP got the right result in the end, I can understand your frustration but I don't think Amazon did anything wrong if you look at it.

They showed 'proof of postage' for the return which was about the right weight and price, you claimed it was fake. They could've simply claimed your letter was fake.

Amazon have to follow some fairly simple guidelines set out by consumer law and the buyer clearly submitted documentation to show they did their part (supposedly). Amazon cannot take it on themselves to be judge and jury in fraudulent claims that is what the courts are for.

[solosinger]

I have a problem. I am a self publishing author who uses Lulu, for printing, and Amason for promotion. I tried to remove my books from Lul printing press, as I am the publisher and own the right. However, despite numerous emails Amazon and Lulu who have a deal still continues to sell my books between them.

No amount of legal threat made against themwill stop them from doing this criminal breach of copyright. I am stuck as I want them to remove my books from their shelves. Please can someone help me please?

[AndyP]

I have a problem. I am a self publishing author who uses Lulu, for printing, and Amason for promotion. I tried to remove my books from Lul printing press, as I am the publisher and own the right. However, despite numerous emails Amazon and Lulu who have a deal still continues to sell my books between them.

No amount of legal threat made against themwill stop them from doing this criminal breach of copyright. I am stuck as I want them to remove my books from their shelves. Please can someone help me please?


I think you might be better off starting a new thread in the legal forum for this. You are likely to get far better advice there.

Good luck!

[fightfraud]

This time, I thought I would win the case but NO. Amazon A to Z hasn't changed. It is is supporting fraudsters and cheaters.
I have been sent a camera back, there was no need to check the serial number as from the visual check I could confirm that it was not mine. All broken, dirty and scratched. Rung Amazon seller support and asured me that the A to Z would support me. The buyer opened a claim and responded to her and said that if she wanted a refund se has to send the right camera. after 4 days, Amazon asked me to refund the buyer, I issued a partial refund at the value of a camera for spares and repair. 3 days later Amazon refunded the buyer "Cheater" and gave the full refund.
After various emails, they gave me a number to call:

Customer Service can be reached from Monday to Friday, 8:00 am -- 6:00 pm (GMT)

Phone: 0800 279 6620 (from within the UK)
+44 20 8636 9451 (outside the UK)

Guess what? The number is dead, how can an organisation at the size of Amazon do that to it's customers?
I am thinking now to take the matter to the Police as very frustrated.
I told Amazon: "You are an accomplice because you are supporting these fraudsters, You haven't done any investigation and if it was your money you wouldn't refund a thief".

The law of the jungle!

[fightfraud]

thanks for the information:)
I think an action is required such as a new legistlation but we need to be united even sellers who haven't been cheated yet.

[AndyP]

I'm a bit confused. Where did that telephone number for Support come from or more to the point "when" did it come from? Seller Support hasn't been available via telephone for some considerable time now....it moved to a ticket based system.

[fightfraud]

Hi Andy P,
This is the copy of the email sent to me after insisting to speak to a human:

Thank you for writing to us at Amazon.co.uk.

We apologize that we are unable to contact you directly by phone as you requested. Unfortunately, we do not make outgoing phone calls.

If this response does not address your inquiry or concern, you are welcome to call our Customer Service department:

Customer Service can be reached from Monday to Friday, 8:00 am -- 6:00 pm (GMT)

Phone: 0800 279 6620 (from within the UK)
+44 20 8636 9451 (outside the UK)

We are also available to assist you 7 days a week via e-mail. For future reference, you can contact us via e-mail by going to the URL below at any time:


Thank you for doing business with Amazon.co.uk.

---
Ruth
Account Specialist
A-to-z Guarantee Program

[Robprotronica]

Just wanted to update this thread with a modified version of the "returns" Amazon fraud that we have been hit with.

Via Amazon Marketplace we received an order for a HyperJuice battery £359.95 which we duly dispatched using a courier service and a day or so latter received the routine "Delivery Complete" email from the couriers.

About a week latter we get a delivery enquiry from the buyer saying, "where's my battery I have not received it". So we ask the couriers for the delivery signature and next day we recieve a pdf file with a copy of the delivery address, signature and delivery time.

We send the information to the buyer and he says, "Not my signature - where's my battery?"

The address is an apartment block, so thinking that maybe it got delivers to the wrong apartment, we arrange, via the courier company, for the delivery driver to return to the delivery address. At the delivery address, the driver meets with the buyer and sees inside the apartment the woman he recognises as the person who signed for the package.

Despite the driver clearly identifying someone inside the delivery address as the recipient of the package, the buyer continues to claim that the goods have not been delivered.

No surprise that an A to Z guarantee claim gets filed.

The buyer has never challenged our position, that the goods have been delivered to someone seen inside the flat, he just maintains that he has not received them.

No surprise either on which way Amazon have found.

Has anyone out there had Amazon find in favour of the seller?

One of the earlier posts said, Amazon essentially have to pick whether they are going to support fraudulent sellers or fraudulent buyers and their only choice is to support the fraudulent buyer.

I can't see that Amazon have any option but to support this kind of fraud - it is just morally reprehensible and leaves a very bad taste.

The only thing we can do is treat Amazon as a marginal, high risk sales channel. The more the message gets out amongst sellers that Amazon is "High Risk", perhaps Amazon will shift its stance somewhat, but I am not holding out much hope.

[kulture]

In your situation, you have enough evidence to go for a small claim. Why not.

I have had Amazon find in my favour against a buyer. I have also had Amazon find in favour of the buyer BUT fund the refund themselves. So it is not always as black and white as you say.

[Robprotronica]

Hi Kulture,

We are looking at what we can do through the legal system - the buyer is in Holland and we are in the UK so more effort probably needed than maybe it is worth - although the couriers local delivery depot in Holland have volunteered to help in any action we want to take.

Also good to know that Amazon sometimes side with the seller. I have not really done much research in this area but the immediate impression when starting to google this issue is that there are a huge amount of sellers complaining about Amazon/PayPal/eBay supporting fraudulent customer claims and, so far, I have not seen anything from customers complaining they didn't get refunds.

Amazon in particular make much of the proposition that buying through them is the safe way to buy on the internet. However, this proposition is in large part funded by the sellers not Amazon.

We know that Amazons proposition is attractive to certain buyers, even though our products are slightly more expensive on Amazon compared to our own site, we still get about 10% of sales via Amazon. So Amazon is a useful channel - what I think we are realising is that it is also a "High Risk" channel.

As a "High Risk" channel perhaps it is best suited to lower cost items or high margin items. For higher cost items, unless margins are also high, then the risk may not be worth it.

Even given your more positive experiences of Amazon, I think that fundamentally Amazon is a High Risk channel and the more sellers who come to the same conclusion the more Amazon will become a "Cheap Bazaar", destroying its own usefulness.

Rob

[kalpna]

A warning to all sellers operating on Amazon.co.uk,
... Amazon.co.uk helps perpetuate fraud with their A-Z guarantee


Amazon's A-Z guarantee program is apparently designed to help buyers in cases where they have not received an item or they have received an item that is "not as described". Well, fraudulent buyers have found ways to exploit this scheme at seller's expense and not only is Amazon siding with the frauds, but they are helping them con small businesses whilst hiding behind the clause in their terms and conditions:
4. Amazon's right of recovery. Amazon retains the right to seek reimbursement from
the seller if it, in its sole discretion, decides to reimburse the buyer under the
terms of the Amazon A-z Guarantee described in clause C.1 or Amazon receives a
chargeback from the buyer's credit/debit card issuer for the amount of the buyer's
purchase from the seller.

Our story - we are a small business based in London. We sell on Amazon, eBay, Playtrade & Tazbar and have good histories with each.
We have been selling on Amazon.co.uk the longest (since 2006) and have noticed an increase in buyer fraud. This is what happened to us just this week and I wanted to alert
other small businesses operating on Amazon.co.uk of this:

30th March, 2009: We sold a buyer a used Playstation 3 console with all necessary accessories.
It was described as "Used - Good" and we even added a complementary bag.
Total sale price: £220.00 delivered.

1st April, 2009: The buyer contacted us to say that a USB charger for one of the controllers was missing from the "package".
There were 3 people who were present when the console was packed including myself. I had personally watched
each item being placed into the console travel bag - it really was packed & presented very well. We responded
to the buyer exactly where that cable had been packed and asked him to check.

1st April, 2009: The buyer filed an A-Z guarantee claim saying that the item was
"Not as described - Missing parts/components". We responded the above statement via Amazon.co.uk's online form.
We also told the buyer that if they were not happy with the purchase, they were welcome to return the goods
& provided the address (which is on the invoice, as are our T&Cs in accordance with DSR).
8th April, 2009: An empty C6 envelope is delivered to us via Royal Mail First Class Recorded delivery - it was signed for by our building mailroom staff. Puzzled, I keep this envelope in my desk drawer.

16th April, 2009: Amazon inform us that the buyer informed Amazon.co.uk that he has returned the Playstation 3 console via Royal Mail First Class Recorded Delivery for a full refund. He says that it was successfully delivered & signed for and provides a tracking number. This number corresponds to the envelope mentioned above. We relay the above information to Amazon.co.uk, scan the envelope and email the picture. The envelope was empty and cost £1.14 to send. For the record, a Playstation 3 console costs around 7KG and we had to courier the package and enhance the insurance to £210. Royal Mail's Recorded Delivery service insures up to £39.

21st April, 2009: Response from Amazon.co.uk, "We will contact the buyer regarding the return of the item and request proof of shipping which should show the weight of the item at the time it was shipped. If the buyer can produce a receipt that shows the order was sent back to you with the correct address and shipping weight you could be held responsible for the claim."

10th May, 2009: Follow-up from Amazon.co.uk, "The buyer has provided us with a shipping receipt that shows that the return was sent to your address with a weight of 6.030 kg. The receipt also shows it was shipped on 07/04/09 and the cost was GBP 14.57. As they have proven that the item was shipped back to you we will need you to issue them a full refund. If you need a copy of the receipt we would suggest that you contact the buyer directly as we are not able to send attachments through our claims system. Please issue a full refund for this buyer within the next two business days. Failure to do so may result in a debit to your Amazon.co.uk Payments account."

11th May, 2009: We reiterated to Amazon.co.uk that the console had not been returned and that the buyer had sent them a fake scan. We asked that they request the original of the receipt from the buyer - which he buyer would undoubtedly be unable to provide as that tracking number corresponds to an envelope. I pointed out that it had taken the buyer almost 3 weeks to respond to a request for a receipt and that he claims to have sent a £210 item via a service that insures it to £39.

11th May, 2009: (One business day after Amazon.co.uk had said that they would allow two) Amazon.co.uk issued the buyer a full refund of £220 from our account. They now no longer respond to any emails regarding the issue.

We have received legal advice regarding this issue and will pursue the buyer for the funds - the case may end up in court. Amazon.co.uk's T&C protect them from being sued over the matter - however, I feel that they cannot be allowed to rob people of their money with no repercussions. We are considering approaching BBC Watchdog about this issue and would like to invite any other businesses who have been through a similar case, to share their stories too - perhaps we can all put something together?
For any other businesses operating on the site, please be wary of A-Z guarantee claims & remember that Amazon.co.uk have little / no regard for their sellers/merchants.

Thank you for reading.
Have you managed to resolve the issue, and if yes how?
We have a similar issue where the item has been delivered signed for and the customer is stipulating not receiving it, we have proof of delivery also from royal mail but through A-Z AMAZON done a full refund to the buyer, without our consent.

we are out of pocket for £390 and royal mail wont cover us even thought we sent it insured as they are saying its been delivered.

[kalpna]

Just wanted to update this thread with a modified version of the "returns" Amazon fraud that we have been hit with.

Via Amazon Marketplace we received an order for a HyperJuice battery £359.95 which we duly dispatched using a courier service and a day or so latter received the routine "Delivery Complete" email from the couriers.

About a week latter we get a delivery enquiry from the buyer saying, "where's my battery I have not received it". So we ask the couriers for the delivery signature and next day we recieve a pdf file with a copy of the delivery address, signature and delivery time.

We send the information to the buyer and he says, "Not my signature - where's my battery?"

The address is an apartment block, so thinking that maybe it got delivers to the wrong apartment, we arrange, via the courier company, for the delivery driver to return to the delivery address. At the delivery address, the driver meets with the buyer and sees inside the apartment the woman he recognises as the person who signed for the package.

Despite the driver clearly identifying someone inside the delivery address as the recipient of the package, the buyer continues to claim that the goods have not been delivered.

No surprise that an A to Z guarantee claim gets filed.

The buyer has never challenged our position, that the goods have been delivered to someone seen inside the flat, he just maintains that he has not received them.

No surprise either on which way Amazon have found.

Has anyone out there had Amazon find in favour of the seller?

One of the earlier posts said, Amazon essentially have to pick whether they are going to support fraudulent sellers or fraudulent buyers and their only choice is to support the fraudulent buyer.

I can't see that Amazon have any option but to support this kind of fraud - it is just morally reprehensible and leaves a very bad taste.

The only thing we can do is treat Amazon as a marginal, high risk sales channel. The more the message gets out amongst sellers that Amazon is "High Risk", perhaps Amazon will shift its stance somewhat, but I am not holding out much hope.
We had a similar issue and amazon has done a full refund to the buyer even though we have proof from the delivery company. I give up selling on amazon as they are encouraging fraud

[Robprotronica]

Kalpna,

Sorry to hear that Amazon have again supported fraudsters rather than the sellers - but I don't think we can expect much different.

We have not given up selling on Amazon - we have just decided that it is a "High risk" channel which brings us some useful sales. However, as a "High Risk" channel we are now being more careful about what we sell and the precautions we take with higher value items.

Basically we are not going to put a lot of effort into selling on Amazon as it is too risky, but we are not going to throw away sales either.

Rob

[kalpna]

Just wanted to let you know that i appealed Amazon's decision with ample proof and i got my money which was a nice surprise.

What happened that the person who claimed non delivery from me even though we had proof of delivery ordered the same item from a friend of my who i happened to visit when he was dispatching the order, purely out of luck i saw this and said omg that is the same person who amazon has refunded my money even tough i have proof of delivery this person is scamming as her address given to my friend was totally different to where i was asked to dispatch, very suspicious so we both reported this to amazon he cancelled her order and i got fully rembursed.

so with ample proof they do side with sellers.

[Robprotronica]

Hi Kalpna,

We have an appeal in wit Amazon so we will have to wait and see what happens with that.

Our "Buyer" was a little more sneaky. We have a copy of the delivery signature from the courier company, but the buyer says, "thats not my signature - I never signed for anything".

The Buyer sent us a copy of his Dutch ID card to show that it is not his signature - actually he did this before we got anything back from the couriers, so we started to get suspicious.

When the delivery driver went back to the delivery address at our request, the driver saw a woman in the apartment and recognised her as the person who signed for the delivery. The "Buyer" has just ignored the fact that the person signing has been recognised and simply makes no comment about this in any communication.

So we have proof of delivery but supposedly with an unknown signature.

Don't think Amazon are going to find in our favour on this one.

Rob

[titanicuk]

Seling online is always risky. So only sell things you can affort to lose.

By the way, not all buyers cliamed item not reieved are fruadster. Might be it is the driver sign for the parcel. they get paid for 'Delivered' item, and no pay for redlivery. So there is not much incentive for them to card buyer. Simply sign for it and do what ever he wants. I used to post about 100 parcel per week with DXX, and this happens alot specially in London area when address is in apartment. I know this happen cos most buyer will accept replacement product rather than refund, my product is low cost and only need once.

[Robprotronica]

Hi Titanicuk,

I agree that not all claims are fraud - our first thoughts with this delivery were that the package had been lost or mis-delivered by the couriers, although that would be a first. We have sent several thousand packages via APC Overnight and whilst there have been a handful of issues, we have so far not had a package permanently lost.

We were losing about 1% with Royal Mail.

I think we have to accept that selling stuff is risky. However, we have only been hit with fraud via Amazon and not our own web sites, hence my contention that Amazon is a High Risk Channel especially as there is a strong body of evidence on this tread and other places that Amazon sides with the customer unless there is conclusive proof otherwise. The standard of proof required by Amazon would seem to go beyond that required by the courts as several sellers who have A-Z claims denied by Amazon have gone on to successfully claim from the "Buyer" via the courts.

So our view is Amazon is higher risk than other channels and a morally reprehensible company for siding with the fraudsters.

Rob

[titanicuk]

Hi

Rob,
I agree AM or eBay is risky, that is why we only source item which has no or low resell value, this elimated alot 'Not not received' claim. When this happen will just take it as part of operational cost and move on.

AM denied one of my buyer for 'Item not received' deliveried item. I was quite suprise to see that.

TT

[MancunianCreative]

Incredible that people have such nerve when it comes to these scams!

[Robprotronica]

Hi MancunianCreative,

We were totally surprised by how calculating the "Buyer" was - in all communications he just kept saying they he had not received the goods - any evidence to the contrary was simply ignored.

Basically Amazon are going to side with the "Buyer" unless the "Buyer" really makes a mistake so they can be very brazen about the fraud that they are pulling off.

We will be moving towards titanicuk's suggestion of only selling lower cost items on Amazon so that the likelihood of fraud is lower and the cost of fraud can be considered part of doing business on Amazon.

As per one of my earlier posts, the only items suitable for Amazon are low cost, high margin.

Anything else is not worth the risk.

Rob

[kalpna]

Customer bought ipad2 from us claimed to have received something different on the A-Z claim, would not tell us what was different, asked him to send the ipad back after more that 3weeks we got a package back yesterday, 15sep 11 straight away looking at the package i knew that there is no IPAD in there, we videoed the whole thing from sealed package to opening it in from of an independent witness a criminal lawyer and guess what we found returned BRICKS in the IPAD2 box??

Sent the video to Amazon, with all evidence written statement from the lawyer, Amazon still went ahead and refunded the money to this buyer. Clearly crime is being committed using the Amazon platform and Amazon are encouraging this by refunding scammers and the buyers are fully aware of this so they keep doing this to sellers because they know they will get away with it.

Bunch of IDIOTS work for Amazon,

[Robprotronica]

Hi Kalpna,

Really sorry to hear yet another scam supported by Amazon - However, they are not Idiots working at Amazon, I fear that it is much worse, Amazon are DELIBERATELY finding in favour of the scammers.

Amazon make a promise to buyers that Amazon is the safest place to shop on the web and it is a very easy promise for Amazon to keep because it is not backed up with their money it is backed up with yours and mine. Unless there is cast iron evidence of a scam, Amazon are gong to give "the benefit of the doubt" in favour of the "Buyer".

The scammers we have encountered seem to be well practised so whilst they have made a number of mistakes that make it clear their actions are fraud, they know the game well enough to stay on the right side of Amazon and steal the money or the goods.

Rob

[gibby]

All of this must be costing Amazon business too.
I have heard many similar stories and we stopped our planned trial with Amazon after hearing some of them.

One day they may learn.

G

[kulture]

All of this must be costing Amazon business too.
I have heard many similar stories and we stopped our planned trial with Amazon after hearing some of them.

One day they may learn.

G
Amazon are not as bad as these posts imply. I have had a few A- claims over the years and some have been declined by Amazon, some paid by Amazon, and some paid by me. In all cases Amazon have given the buyer the benefit of the doubt, where doubt exists. But if you word your defence carefully, are respectful of both the customer and Amazon, and "play the game" you will not always loose. In the end you will always get some scam artist who will steal from you. No matter how hard you try. It is the same as having a shoplifter. It is part of the cost of doing business.

Richard

[Robprotronica]

Hi Gibby,

I think Amazon win big time by telling buyers how safe they are with the A-Z guarantee.

That guarantee is funded not by Amazon but by the sellers. If Amazon pay out the scammers all they lose is the commission which is no big deal - if they lose a seller, again I suspect this is no big deal as Amazon are essentially a commoditised marketplace with typically many sellers for every item.

As I have mentioned before this makes Amazon a "High Risk" sales channel.

I don't think it makes Amazon a "Don't Use At All" channel, just one that is more suitable for certain items, typically those with any or all the following characteristics:

Low resale value - Designer Label Bedding rather than an iPad
Low - medium sale price - Seller can afford to lose the item and not worth the effort for scammers
High margin - Again seller can afford to lose a few.

High Value, High Resale Potential and Lower Margin products are really not suitable for such a "High Risk" channel as Amazon.

If all sellers treat Amazon this way then Amazon will be a bit of a "Cheap Bazaar" but again not sure amazon will be terribly troubled.

Rob

[Robprotronica]

Hi Kulture,

I don't think Amazon are "Bad" - Morally Reprehensible for supporting scammers - Yes definitely, and as you say totally predictable in supporting the "Buyer" if there is any "Doubt".

The problem is the scammers know that Amazon will always side with them if they can create the slightest bit of doubt.

So for example in our case which is the non delivery version of the scam, we arrange for the delivery driver to revisit the buyer at the delivery address, the buy will admit to talking to the driver, but in all correspondence with us and Amazon referred to the driver as returning to the buyers "neighbourhood".

We have even sent Amazon a photo of the buyers from door along with a copy of the signature obtained at the time of delivery.

As long as the buyer keeps saying I haven't had the goods Amazon are supporting him.

Amazon have no reason to do anything else.

So we have to consider Amazon as a "High Risk" channel and react accordingly e.g. insist on "Consignee Only" signatures on Amazon orders above a certain amount and modifying the profile of items we sell on Amazon to reflect the risk in the channel.

Rob

[kulture]

In all online trading there is a risk of a scam. There will always be some customers who steal from you. Amazon initially make their job easier, but, unlike credit card companies, Amazon do keep a history of claims and if a buyer makes too many they too get struck off. Cold comfort for the sellers scammed along the way.

Now you can begin to notice the potential scammers who are trying to get the seller to refund without an A-Z. Basically try to blackmail with the threat of negative feed back etc. It is potentially these scammers who know that they have reached their limit on A-Z claims who do anything to avoid making a claim.

In my years of selling on Amazon I have noticed a trend where Amazon is less likely to side with the buyer, and less likely to get the seller to fund the refund if one is granted. Where initially the A-Z claim was ALWAYS granted and ALWAYS funded by the seller, this is not now the case. This could be because Amazon are changing policy a bit, or it could be because Amazon have built up more data on some buyers and are less likely to give THEM the benefit of doubt.

I would say that online selling is a risky business, and using Amazon as a channel, provided you do it sensibly, is no more risky than using your own site.

[amazonseller007]

First of all the original poster ZEONE is lucky they did not get countersued.

Any and all issues arising out of the amazon a to z policy is between the seller and Amazon. The seller agrees to this via the terms of service they accepted prior to selling.
The buyer is billed by Amazon and then pays them directly. In this case the person with the PS3 is simply a fulfillment agent.

I am in no ways siding with people scamming or using fraudulent methods on Amazon.
Furthermore I don't buy that Zeone actually took this case to trial, and won with the other side present.

I need to reiterate the legal fact that issues such as this are between Amazon and the Seller ONLY. The buyer never entered into any contract to do business with you. If you sue a buyer, there is a very good likelyhood you will lose AND be responsible for the defendants costs to show up to court.

Source: Amazon Terms of Service. ( I suggest you read it, and decide whether or not you still want to do business with them. As a seller, I wouldn't.)

[Robprotronica]

Not sure Amazonseller007 is entirely correct with the above interpretation of the Amazon Seller terms and conditions.

Item 13 0f the general terms:-

13. Relationship of Parties

You and we are independent contractors, and nothing in this Agreement will be construed to create a partnership, joint venture, agency, franchise, sales representative, or employment relationship between the parties. Amazon is not an auctioneer, neither is it an intermediary between the buyer and the seller. ...

And in "Selling on Amazon Service Terms"

S-2.1 Sale and Fulfilment.

(j) identify yourself as the seller of the product on all packing slips or other information included with Your Products and as the Person to which a customer may return the applicable product;

Amazon is pretty vague in these documents as to what the relationship actually is and what their role is in the sale. The only thing that I could find that got really specific was that if anything goes wrong Amazon are not liable.

Kinda how I thought it would be.

Looks to me as if an "Amazon Seller" is the actual seller of the product and not Amazon who are just taking the money.


Rob