Paypal holding funds.

[TimmoB]

We've been using paypal as a payment service provider almost since we started trading, in fact we have processed $1/4million through them. (they could not give me the figure in sterling)

I was selling some old stock rolls of canvas though ebay, and when somebody bought one, paypal elcted to hold onto the funds until I received positive feedback from the buyer or 21 days had passed.

This is the text from their complaints dept's response, and my reply in red.

* You have been on eBay less than six months and sell an item above 50 GBP - the item was sold for £31.00 and we have been on ebay since 27 jan 2006

* You have a feedback score of less than 98% and sell an item above 50 GBP - feedback is 100% positive

* You have received less than 100 eBay feedback - We do not sell on ebay as a rule, we have our own website with paypal as one of our PSPs

* More than 5% of your transactions result in dissatisfied buyers - We have no dissatisfied customers

* You have an average Detailed Seller Rating (DSR) of 4.5 or less - No idea what this is.

* You have received less than 20 Detailed Seller Ratings - as above

* You are listing your item in a higher-risk category - it's a roll of canvas, not a sub machine gun

And I take it that the $1/4million of transactions through my account without 1 complaint or chargeback counts for absolutely nothing.

I am absolutely livid that they are practically calling me a fraudster.

I will never use them again. :mad:

Anyone else had this?

A furious Timmo.

[Alison Jones]

We are a new business. We have recently started listing on ebay. I sold a book for £25 and paypal held the funds. It was under £50, had not had any unsatisfied customers as had only been listing items on ebay for 2 days when first item sold. I got feedback very fast but paypal did not release the funds I had to chase and it updated the next day.

Think it is wrong.

Alison

[Robert Wheeler]

We are a video production company with a current commercial DVD catalog of one title. We opened our account recently. Ebay will only let us list one unit of our title every 30 days. Tried to explain to them. They don't care. Said it was protection against counterfeiters. We own all the rights to our own title. Great fun.

Also, they withheld the funs on £11 and £5 sales.

Fabulous.

[JackMaurer]

paypal sucks. they held 5 grand of ours for 6 months without justification, avoid where possible

[matt.chatterley]

* You are listing your item in a higher-risk category - it's a roll of canvas, not a sub machine gun

And I take it that the $1/4million of transactions through my account without 1 complaint or chargeback counts for absolutely nothing.

I am absolutely livid that they are practically calling me a fraudster.

I will never use them again. :mad:

Anyone else had this?

A furious Timmo.

Not had such problems, specifically, myself/ourselves, but have talked to plenty of people who have had similar issues - I would say avoid PayPal where possible, if the funds from online payments are critical to your cashflow.

Their T&Cs are a bit iffy to say the least, and sadly if they decide this is what they are going to do to you - there is not a lot you can do about it.

PS - SMG comment caused tea spillage - very funny. :)

[TimmoB]

Just to add insult to injury, our other PSP, Protx, who have been an absolute shining star, i could not recommend them enough, have gone and rebranded to Sagepay, now i'm not that bothered by this, other than changing every page on my website to update to the new Sagepay logos, I just think if it aint broke dont fix it.....

Oh well back to using HSBC E-payments, perish the thought, they'll probably go offline for a week and not tell anyone like last time.

And don't get me started on that idiot in Number 11!!!!!

Rant over, calming pills administered.

Timmo.

[bigfish]

Held 20k of ours back for 6 month and processed over half a mil with them.. avoid!

[Barretts-Selfstorage]

Paypal seem to hold every payment we receive, its very annoying to say the least!

[TimmoB]

Below is the reply paypal have sent me.

Thank you for contacting PayPal. My name is John. I appreciate the opportunity to assist you with your concern in relation to payment on hold and I hope everything is doing great with you today.

We appreciate the time you spend writing to us with your comments about our service.

PayPal continuously strives to provide you with the highest quality website features and navigation system. We carefully consider every feedback email we receive and appreciate your suggestions.

Thank you very much for your feedback and we hope that you continue to enjoy using PayPal.

What a waste of time. here is my reply to them.

DOES ANYONE AT PAYPAL ACTUALLY READ AND UNDERSTAND THE EMAILS WE SEND TO YOU!!!

WHAT SORT OF A JOKE ANSWER IS THE ONE I HAVE JUST RECEIVED FROM YOUR COLLEAGE JOHN!

READ THE RESPONSE I SENT TO YOU AND THEN GIVE ME A REAL ANSWER FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS AUTHORITY.

Lets see what happens, nothing i would imagine.

Timmo.

[Robert Wheeler]

Ahhh, Timmo, at last I have found a kindred spirit in their response to mindless customer service.

[Eleanor]

Well, I hate paypal. They have never done anything like with holding funds but every time I use them I get fraudulent activity in my bank account (I've linked Paypal up to my debit visa card). I didn't even notice the connection until (whilst in the middle of ranting about thieving gits stealing my money again) someone asked "So, do you use paypal then?". Turns out paypal are known (?) for giving out details.

Buggers.

[TimmoB]

ok after several emails to these idiots, i keep getting the same reply but from a different muppet each time.

THey don't read the original email, i'm gonna put a crash helmet on next time i get a respnse from them, it's beginning to hurt banging my head on the desk.

And now after i resent all the original complaint back to them they send this.....

"
Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to your concern.

I'm afraid that I have very little information to identify what your concern is about Mr. Brennan. If you can resend your email along with a brief explanation as to what the concern is, I will be more than happy to assist you with your concern.

Please note that you can alternatively contact us by phone and have the matter resolved on a more personal level.

I await your reply.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Emmanuel
Resolution Services Department
PayPal, an eBay Company "


I may as well give up.

They obviously don't care about me or my account or probably any of their customers.

This has to be worse than dealing with BT or carphone wahrehouse, and trust me that is saying something!

Right off to hospital to get stitches in my forehead.

Timmo.

[Fuzzy]

God thats shocking:eek:, we use Paypal and have never had a problem (have I tempted fate saying that:rolleyes:)

BT................don't get me going on them:mad:

Timmo, I hope you get the matter sorted and the stitches in your forehead heal well:D

[Robert Wheeler]

Timmo, it may be worth trying a phone call. I have tried before and I got a fairly helpful fellow in Ireland. At least the immediacy may provoke a slightly more fruitful response from them.

[KateCB]

Sadly, calling them won't give you much joy either - they seem to have ainherent employment policy of only employing people who don't actually understand either English or Business.....!

[TimmoB]

Robert,

I did phone them first thing before i entered my email hell.

I got a young woman in Ireland who explained that there was s*d all i could do about it, she then put her manager on the line who was quite curt with me.

I think i wasted far far far too much time on this now, i'll resign myself to never using them again.

Thanks for all the replies and support. :)

Timmo.

[Eagle]

Timmo, some advice:

1. STOP emailing eBay/PayPal. They employ morons (most of whom also can't understand a word of English) to answer emails.

2. PHONE them. You'll be quite surprised at how helpful either company actually is when it comes to dispute resolution. From what you wrote, this is obviously some kind of mix-up. You'll get it fixed real quick if you speak to someone.

[Edit - just read the above post] I'm quite surprised you couldn't resolve this. The few times I've had problems, they've always been more than helpful. You're saying that a lot of things they accused you of simply aren't true. Well, if that's the case then there's obviously something you're not managing to convince them of. Phone them again.

:)

[dingbat]

As said - forget emails. All you'll get is standard set replies. And then to add insult you'll get a bloody questionnaire on how good the service response was.

Call them up and calmly and politely explain the problems. It worked for me but it did take some time on the phone.

I've had a fews issues with Paypal but they've not held my money without feedback etc. I think the problem here maybe unusual account usage or something which Paypal's fraud system flags up.

edit: Whoops...I just read your last post now. Anyway, just wait it out I suppose.

[4little1s]

We use PayPal and havent had the agro to the level your talking about. I hope we are not tempting fate ! Sounds like calling them is just as bad as emailing them....good luck man

[TimmoB]

quite simply we have removed them as a PSP on our website, we did phone them, they were very rude.

we did fill out the questionaire, trust me it was not a glowing report.

I would strongly recomend to aanyone using them, find another PSP before they screw you over too.
Timmo.

[Eleanor]

Now that you have re-affirmed my complete and utter fear of paypal-thieving-gitbags, what psp would you all recommend?

[TimmoB]

Protx / sagepay or HSBC e-secure payments are the ones we use now, never had a problem with Protx / Sagepay, Hasbc were a bit flaky early last year and we stopped using them for a while, but since ditching paypal we renabled them, i have my fingers crossed.

Timmo.

[webpayments]

Realex payments an irish payments processor also operate in the UK - might be worth checking out also.

[wevet]

I had an issue where I sent money to someone in India. The transaction was stopped and the funds held pending investigation. I had not noticed it had been held up and sent another payment to the same payee,that went through fine.

When I found that the original transaction had been held up I phoned them and via email I was asked the usual client questions confirming the transaction as genuine. Then nothing for a week or so.

I phoned Paypal wo told me the matter was still being investigated. bear in mind I am a verified user anyway, I was told it was still being invetsigated. I said Ok I'll cancel l the transaction and send it via another route just refund the money to my account.

It took 4 more weeks before the money was finally returned to my account.

Since I had hold a verified account adn I had answered their question and they never contacted the payee, what further "investigation" can they have undertaken?

I have now spoken to a lot of people who have had similar experiences wher money is held up and almost without exception the "investigation" has gone on for around 4 weeks.

I have voiced this opinion before:
If Paypal hold up several thousands of transactions a year for 4 weeks that could equate to sevral millions of pounds sitting in their accounts earning money.

Some might say Paypal are huge they don't need the money. Take a look at their European profits it only £2 or £3 million a year so an active treasurt operation using OUR money is probably a significant contribution to that profit.

(...and we gripe about high street banks taking 3 days to process cheques!)

[garysumpter]

The trouble is, by removing Paypal you are eliminating a lot of potential customers who WANT to use paypal. Paypal funds arent 'real money' to most people so they dont mind spending it :)

Gary

[KateCB]

Thats the problem isn't it -PayPal allow people who don't have credit card or debit cards to buy online from their bank account, and surprisingly there are a lot of them out there so it really does cut don on potential customers if removed....surely there has to be another provider - can't we, upstanding business people (:0) of UKBF put something together and do it better/fairer?

[starsgazing]

Don't get me wrong, Paypal do well and truly suck - but they're not as horrific as BT!

That aside, I wonder who you're emailing - if it's service@pp... that's a waste of time. Calling them's useless too - I've never been able to resolve anything over the phone with them.

Other email addresses for the bigwigs- the words before [at] paypal.com:
complaint-response
ppelce

Good luck - fight the good fight!

[bumperman]

Does anyone here know how to find a working phone number for Paypal (& Ebay) when you are not a powerseller? They don't exactly make it easy to phone them, do they?

Thanks

John

[silvermusic]

Thats the problem isn't it -PayPal allow people who don't have credit card or debit cards to buy online from their bank account, and surprisingly there are a lot of them out there so it really does cut don on potential customers if removed....surely there has to be another provider - can't we, upstanding business people (:0) of UKBF put something together and do it better/fairer?

If you take PayPal payments on a web site there's a way to stop people paying via their bank account, otherwise known as eCheque in PayPal speak.

Log into your PayPal account.

Click on "Profile"

In the Selling Preferences column, click on "Payment Recieving Preferences"

Tick the option marked "Block the following payments:
Pay with eCheque or German bank transfer for all website payments except eBay. NOTE: You may not block eCheque payments on eBay."

That way people will only be able to pay you from funds in their account or the credit/debit card they have on file with PayPal.

Note: as the setting says it wont block eCheques if it's an eBay payment, the only way to do that is to accept PayPal only and have your payments set to Requires Immediate Payment.

[serendipitybusiness]

Ebay and Paypal are a nightmare for this, just grabbing money left right and center where they can.

The profits they must make on interest on witheld transactions must be huge.

Who needs a bank to help with your cash flow if you can sponge off your poorly treated customers!!

They seem to continually bite the hand that feeds them.

Surely they have alienated enough customers by now for them to start feeling it. Maybe that is why they are trying to hold onto the money of the ones they have left.

[leemason]

I sold an old mobile phone to someone in Portugal. When it arrived it would not work. I immediately offered them a full refund as the cost of them unlocking the phone to work in Portugal would be more than they had paid for it! The buyer agreed to this. I sent the funds back via paypal and thought that was the end of it. The next thing I knew was that paypal had taken an equivalent amount out of my account and held them because they said it was a disputed transaction. It took a month to get back this amount after sending several e-mails explaining that I had already refunded the buyer!

[complete]

UK Distance Selling laws are nothing when it comes to Paypal.

I had a customer on Ebay put in a claim 1 month after recept of an item, saying goods not as described, and Paypal took my money back, that had already been spent.

I accused them of being Judge, Jury and Executioner, and they sqid the customer always comes first.

I had to threaten legal action to get the item which was perfect, back.

Ebay, still took its fees.

[Business_No1]

I sell mobile phones quite regular on e-bay and all of a sudden they are holding my funds. I have 100% feedback and a score of 50. I phoned up to complain one time as I sold a phone to a guy who was on holiday so didn't get feedback till 14 days later. Then had to wait 4 days till the money was put in my bank account. All in all from putting the phone on e bay to recieving the funds it took 22 days!! I phoned to complain and ask what was done with the money whilst it was on hold? I was told simply by by Mal(Supervisor) the money was there waiting!! Where is there? A bank accruing interest for e-bay and paypal who simply have become to ignorant and arrogant to care about the customers who keep them in business? Under Mal's bed in a big carboard box.

This coupled with getting charged 3 times for selling an item(Listing, Sale fee and paypal fee) is just hard to swallow. I'd rather sell phones now at a slightly cheaper price and make a bit less then line the pocket of another uncaring facelesss organisation.

Passionate I know but some things really do get me P*ssed off.

[silvermusic]

I sell mobile phones quite regular on e-bay and all of a sudden they are holding my funds.


And that is exactly the problem. Mobile phones are just about the biggest area of fraud on eBay, you're not the only mobile phone seller to have this happen, I see it on almost a weekly basis on the Powerseller board.

Not only are they a magnet for buyers trying to rip off sellers, but also the other way round. Not that I'm suggesting for a moment you fall into that category.

[starsgazing]

Not only are they a magnet for buyers trying to rip off sellers, but also the other way round. Not that I'm suggesting for a moment you fall into that category.

As someone who was ripped off on eBay twice - both times buying a mobile phone (2 separate times, 2 separate years), I think it's necessary for goods in that category. The first time I paid by cheque - when eBay had their own buyer protection- but the filing process involved posting a declaration to Germany and waiting 3 months or something (this was aaages back!) - long story short, lost the cash.
Second time (last week!) a "company" called e_cell thought they could keep a grand of my money without delivering any phones! Long story short, Paypal clawed back every last penny. Long story short, I'm glad to see they're tightening up on their sellers. It's sad that innocent people get caught in the cross-fire, but until the swine of the earth stop scamming on eBay, I think that's a fair compromise on high-value transactions... And yes, I've sold high value goods via Paypal & yes I've experienced the held funds (& for 68 days not 22) - it's not ideal; but it's understandable.

[tb1234]

To protect yourself as a buyer on ebay using paypal, make sure you don't pay from your balance and make sure your account is set up to use Visa when there is no balance:

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/protection-paypal/

Personally, I think Paypal is cheap and will avoid websites that only use it as a payment method. I am not alone.

They ebay/paypal also have scant regard for the law with illegal knives, fakes etc all being sold. The latest is novelty lighters.

[peebles]

I'm only on the other end of paypal. They're a pain really and I hate the fact that they're retaining a percentage to you guys just for the privilege. I only pay by credit card now (credit card gives me protection). Put this on your ebay listings and say bye bye to paypal?

Peebles.

[tb1234]

I'm only on the other end of paypal. They're a pain really and I hate the fact that they're retaining a percentage to you guys just for the privilege. I only pay by credit card now (credit card gives me protection). Put this on your ebay listings and say bye bye to paypal?

Peebles.

Peebles all credit cards give you protection for items over £100 under section 75 of the consumer credit act, but visa debit and credit card protect you for all transactions. Small point and apologies if you already know that.

[peebles]

I know that :-) thats why I use my credit card on all transactions, and like I say I prefer not to give paypal a piece of your pie. thank you though and I'm sure that will help someone else out.

[starsgazing]

Peebles all credit cards give you protection for items over £100 under section 75 of the consumer credit act, but visa debit and credit card protect you for all transactions. Small point and apologies if you already know that.

Umm... Hope you're sitting down for this ...

But when you pay via Paypal using your credit card you are not protected by the consumer credit act. Last year the Financial Ombudsman ruled (or updated their ruling) that credit card company > consumer> paypal > merchant/seller is a 4-party transaction. As such the credit card company can only go after Paypal- who once, they've sent the money to the merchant/seller has done their job! The FSO compare the situation with you drawing cash from your credit card and then paying it into the merchant/seller's account.

More about this here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/4201389/Play-your-cards-with-care-in-online-dealings.html

"The legal position is that the credit card company is transferring the money to the payment service company and it is they who are handing it to the organisation providing the goods or services. So the credit card company would only be legally liable under section 75 if there was a problem with the payment service company."

Lloyds are already enforcing this (which I found out the hard way!) and it is only a matter of time before other banks follow suit.

[peebles]

Sorry, I'm getting confused. Can you please clarify?

If I pay for something over the internet and my goods either don't arrive or they are faulty, can I not contact my credit card company to sort out the refund? (Assuming I get no response from the ebay seller). Does this not fall into the distance selling regulations as well?

Many thanks, Peebles.

[starsgazing]

Sorry, I'm getting confused. Can you please clarify?

If I pay for something over the internet and my goods either don't arrive or they are faulty, can I not contact my credit card company to sort out the refund?

Yes, if you've paid the merchant directly ie you go onto a merchant's website & buy goods.


(Assuming I get no response from the ebay seller). Does this not fall into the distance selling regulations as well?

Many thanks, Peebles.

If you've paid via Paypal (or another e-money/money transfer service), some cc companies will not get involved at all - they will simply refer you to them. To add insult to injury, if you look at Paypal's t&cs (which admittedly I've not of late) it goes on and on about how (bottom line) you're not trading in "real" money with them, but actually in e-money which makes them the judge, jury & executioner in their little e-world (as far as your money is concerned). Sure, they're regulated by the FSO, but ultimately the decision is theirs. That said, quite a few people have sued Paypal & won.

Obviously, it's better to pay via your credit card & Paypal regardless - depending on the person at your cc company, sometimes they will help (at the cc company's discretion entirely & on a case-by-case basis) & sometimes they will compensate you as a "goodwill gesture". But always exercise caution on eBay anyway - to save yourself the hassle. I mentioned earlier that I was nearly ripped off by user e_cell (save for Paypal intervention) and if you take a look at their feedback, I actually blame myself for being blinded by their high scores & not analysing the comments or purchase amounts!

[peebles]

Thank you, what I do is, I telephone the buyer directly and pay by credit card directly. Paypal are nowhere to be seen.

I don't know about this but could you not put a 'buy it now', but link to your website to the direct product in the description? Then you will hopefully get more people linking to your website to do the deal directly? (Maybe you could offer a small discount for this? Just a thought)

Peebles.

[starsgazing]

Thank you, what I do is, I telephone the buyer directly and pay by credit card directly. Paypal are nowhere to be seen.

I don't know about this but could you not put a 'buy it now', but link to your website to the direct product in the description? Then you will hopefully get more people linking to your website to do the deal directly? (Maybe you could offer a small discount for this? Just a thought)

Peebles.

eBay has scans (and whistle blowers :)) that would very quickly put an end to that! An eBay ban would follow shortly afterwards.

[tb1234]

Stargazing, that is correct for protection under section 75, but the Visa Chargeback scheme still works with Paypal transactions as long as you are not paying from balance and use a Visa card to top up your account either debit or credit.

See: http://whatconsumer.co.uk/protection-paypal/

This includes information about making a formal complaint about paypal see the comment at the bottom of the post.

[starsgazing]

the Visa Chargeback scheme still works with Paypal transactions as long as you are not paying from balance and use a Visa card to top up your account either debit or credit.

Ah OK - I have a Mastercard with Lloyds - they replaced my Visa with this Airmiles Duo crap and everything went downhill from there. So the moral of the story is switch to Visa! :D

[tb1234]

The most secure one is Cahoot - you can create a new CC number for each transaction online. Pretty cool

[quikshop]

Sadly, calling them won't give you much joy either - they seem to have ainherent employment policy of only employing people who don't actually understand either English or Business.....!

Agreed, I've had need to speak to PayPal employees a few times over the years and if you are lucky enough to speak to someone who understands the language, they come across as a bit shell-shocked and utterly dismissive.

Why should PayPal invest in providing any sort of acceptable customer services, they have a captive audience.

[kozrak]

i hate paypal as well but until i find a suitable replacement what can you do,
unless someone out there knows of one just like it with same facilities,
if so speak up, ill change in a flash

[ico1234567]

Hi

The closest we got was nochex but not great for ebayers as you dont get the straight through processing.

They are good if you run a business with your own website and had no issues from them whatsoever.

Check out more horror stories at paypalsucks dot com

[quikshop]

The closest we got was nochex but not great for ebayers as you dont get the straight through processing.

They are good if you run a business with your own website and had no issues from them whatsoever.

NoChex have a poor reputation and a habit of holding onto money aka PayPal. My own dealings with them lead me to think that its not the most, well, professional of organisations.

[starsgazing]

NoChex have a poor reputation and a habit of holding onto money aka PayPal. My own dealings with them lead me to think that its not the most, well, professional of organisations.

That's an understatement! I found NoChex to be a complete and utter joke. One time I received a nochex payment for about £100 at around 9am & initiated a withdrawal shortly afterwards. At around 1pm that same day I had received about 4 messages from Nochex. The gist of each (in order) -

1) We suspect you have received fraudulent funds and urge you to refund this payment immediately.
2) We see you have not refunded the funds and urge you to refund them immediately.
3) We see you have still not refunded the payment and will call the police if you continue to hold on to them.
4) Your account has been frozen due to strange activity. Please contact blah blah blah@nochex.com for assistance.

Contacted blah blah blah and told them that I would refund the payment once it hit my account - unlike most processors they refund in realtime, so they would charge my card for the refund instead of take the account into negative & I wasn't sure I'd even receive the money. Nochex then told me they'd restore my account once I refunded the money... I told them to shove my account in a place where the sun don't shine! Money hit a few days later, I refunded the transaction & washed my hands of them! Sure, it was a few years ago - but I doubt much has changed if people on this & other forums still complain that their customer service is crappy...

[Christiane]

I had about £50 in my Nochex account when I closed it. The said they would refund it to me three months after closing the account. Needless to say I never saw the money....

[ico1234567]

We had a completely different experience with these guys - turnover through them over the 3 year period was around £400 - 500k. The main benefits were more competitive commission which was key. It makes a massive difference particular when you take account the VAT impact as well, particular when margins are thin.

Occasional issue but no where near as the nightmare we had with paypal when we started off. Basically lost money with paypal and never saw it again. Never ever use paypal again and I dont buy from shops that use paypal in principle. I'm sure there are many others like me out there. Paypal seem to think they own your money and everything in your bank account. Once an account is opened you are at the mercy of their incompetence.

With nochex dont recall losing any cash.

You may then have to forgo some effort to sort out issues as their margins are probably thin to employ lots of people.

Worldpay was also expensive and did not try any others as it would have meant a redesign of the website which we could not be bothered to do.

Google checkout looks good and probably an excellent competitor to paypal as long as you are not using ebay for sales.