Do we need another Chocolate Shop?

[poochieparlour]

Well,

I have posted here bfore as my mum owns her own business called, Poochie Parlour for which I have seeked plenty of help and advice!

My name is Mark, and I am 21 and a Chef, recently I got working with a Pastry chef who is 26 and has worked 2 Michelin star for around 10 years, so he knows his stuff!!

Bascially he thought for my age and cooking experiance I was very good, and he has a dream of opening a Chocolate shop. Here in Cambridge there are 2-3 chocolate shops around, but we are hoping to be different in terms of the chocolates themselves i.e

1. Using fruits only in season for fillings, i.e no strawberry choc in december etc etc
2. ALL chocolates are Hand-Made, no machines, we will make them all by hand
3. Undercut big outlets like Thorntons, Hotel Chocolat
4. Demonstrations, show people how cholcate is made
4. Eventually move on to making wedding cakes, pastries, etc etc and customers can make their own flavours of chocolates too!

So, we need to think of a name, logo, uniform, where to sell (any ideas), suppliers of packaging (any ideas)?

We are intially looking at a Market Stall, because we dont want a loan on a shop, but waiting times can be long, so any ideas on where/how to sell before hand?

Please fire away for more info

Thanks
Mark

[mpen]

get a web site and sell online

[mke]

Into hard work? Then marketing into events, mail order (courier rather than mail for freshness) for private functions, much more. Getting in there is the hard bit. Your idea is timely. Get on with it. PM me if you need to.

[stevon]

What about the stalls in some indoor shopping centres that you get?

They're expensive (not as expensive as the shops) but you'll get the footfall and if folk are walking past and you're making chocolate then you're bound to get a bit of interest... If you make it for them, right infront of their eyes, to their specification I'm sure you could charge a decent premium if you were setup in the right kind of shopping centre (ie. one with good tennants such as John Lewis, Debenhams, etc. not the £1 shop kind of places).

Or you could lease a shop on a short-term lease of a year or so... Landlords will take most offers now because the shops have been lying empty for too long and they're paying the rates. If it all goes tits-up (I actually think its a good idea though) then at least you're only tied in for a year!

[KreativeJuice]

As Mpen said, I think there is a definite market for luxury chocs online, only last week my other half bought me some daftly expensive choc over the internet, they are very nice but tbh their packaging could do with a bit of a spruce up to give them a bit more of a luxury feel.

You need to give a lot of thought to your target market, its all very well saying that your going to undercut Thorntons etc, but then that just smacks of cheapness. I would go for the luxury end, avoid the stalls, put your efforts into creating a luxury set of chocs, enter any of the competions (which is how my other half found the chocs he bought me) and win!. Market online and in the specalist chocoholics mags etc.

Maybe you could offer courses rather than demos, something I would be interested in...

We would be interested in helping you create a brand, so have a look at our portfolio (http://www.kreativejuice.co.uk/portfolio.html) and get in touch if you would like a quote.

Kind regards
Karen

[liposuctionguide]

As Mpen said, I think there is a definite market for luxury chocs online, only last week my other half bought me some daftly expensive choc over the internet, they are very nice but tbh their packaging could do with a bit of a spruce up to give them a bit more of a luxury feel.

[KreativeJuice]

???????????

[ROY JONES]

I think people are getting into more healthier dark chocolate,so what are your preferences,milk or dark?

[Monica_ChilliApple]

Hi Mark,

I also agree with Mpen & Karen (Kreative Juice), a web presence & an online store should be your first priority as it's becoming a vast & popular market for shoppers to buy stuff. Specially when we think of items that can be gifted (chocolates are on the top of the list) most of them are being sold online today.

Hope this helps :) If you need any more advise or help please do let me know.

Ta,
Monica
www.chilliapple.co.uk (http://www.chilliapple.co.uk)

[Write My Site]

Don't try and undercut Thorntons and Hotel Chocolat. You won't win.

Also, having lived in Cambridge, I'm pretty sure it has more than 2 chocolate shops. I know there's a Thorntons, a Hotel Chocolat, an independent chocolatier and a market stall selling chocolates - all within 2 minutes' walk of each other in the town centre.

I agree with the others that you should consider selling your products online, targeting the gift market.

[Ashley_Price]

Your question (as the title) suggests you are worried about there being a "saturated market". Believe me there is no such thing!

Simply look at how many accountants, solicitors, etc., there are out there (I know of two accountancy firms in Newhaven that are completely independent yet are next door to each other).

However, if you set up in an industry with a lot of competitors, you need to think what makes you different and how can you attract people to your shop rather than your competitors. Don't just think price - if your competitors are big national firms they have deep pockets and can probably cut their prices so low that you couldn't hope to match.

If you have the will and determination to do this then go for it.

[Fuzzy]

A chocolate shophttp://www.a1businessforums.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/inlove.gif http://www.a1businessforums.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/set1/001_rolleyes.gifhttp://www.a1businessforums.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/set1/lol.gif

Have you tried the National Trust ?, I know that they do 4 fairs a year which are quite specialised Easter, Summer, Autumn and Christmas.

Or they hold regular farmers markets see here. (http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-events/w-events-food_farming.htm)

Lots of luck Love Fuzzyhttp://www.a1businessforums.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/set1/001_smile.gif

[studiowide]

I did branding, pricing, marketing etc for a minor celeb, chef driven, premium chocolate company two years ago and they are doing very well now; www.feeding-your-imagination.co.uk (http://www.feeding-your-imagination.co.uk)

My advice would be that you need to try to define who you are from the beginning - how will you get your chocolates to market? etc etc

If you go the online route then I suggest you approach established online confectionery retailers and get them to take your range on. By doing this you are using a 1 step channel model approach.

And, as just as critical as getting the branding right is, it's also crucial that you get your pricing structure laid out correctly. As a manufacturer you need to draw a line in the sand as to what you expect the RRP of your choccy to be, and then work it back to allow for margins at both the retailer and also a potential distributor.

Retailers will typically want 30-35% GM, distributors will want 25% GM and then the balance will be your retained % GM. If you never use distributors or retailers then more %GM for you. If you do choose to use them now or in the future then you will have the pricing structure to allow for this. It's too late once you're established to then sandwich in a distributor and retailer 2 step model. I would advise you build this in up front.

Your RRP needs to be matched to your target market and your products so please make sure you have your branding sorted out - it sounds like you are capable of putting together some high end chocolates, the last thing you want to do is display these in crap packaging. Also better branding + premium product = higher RRP = a 2 step model (distributor to retailers) = more consumers.

This was quite a quick reply, I have tons more info. If you need help PM me.

Cheers,

[poochieparlour]

wow!

Thnks for all the replies!

So after some skim reading then, I think most of you would ahgree with these points then?

1. Dont try to undercut big retailers
2. Become different and known for something (thats why we want, seasonal fillings, hand made etc etc)
3. Try an approach major retailers

Any views on if people think this could work or not? I think ititially setup costs are quite low, I think we could do really well, even though there is Thortons etc

We are looking for a good website, and dont want to look cheap, infact quite the opposte, e want to become exclusive and want people to have a long lasting good first impression

[studiowide]

Yes it can work - there is a decent size market for passionate, artisan food producers.

Don't focus too much on Thornton's et al, if anything, whatever the "others" do, you do the opposite, that's what will set you apart.

Also, understand what you are good at (making nice choccy) and stick to it, don't try to be a master of everything. You will need help with marketing/branding etc and when the time is right, buy in those professional services. It will certainly give you the image and differentiation you are looking for in the long run.

cheers,

[Ashley_Price]

You have seem to say one thing then the opposite in your last post.

You state "I think ititially setup costs are quite low..."

Then say "We are looking for a good website, and dont want to look cheap, infact quite the opposte, e want to become exclusive"

You can't have it both ways - you can't have low set-up costs if you don't want to look "cheap". You will need to spend some money.

Of course it can work, but like I said above you need the drive, determination and will to keep going when it gets really tough.

[poochieparlour]

You have seem to say one thing then the opposite in your last post.

You state "I think ititially setup costs are quite low..."

Then say "We are looking for a good website, and dont want to look cheap, infact quite the opposte, e want to become exclusive"

You can't have it both ways - you can't have low set-up costs if you don't want to look "cheap". You will need to spend some money.

Of course it can work, but like I said above you need the drive, determination and will to keep going when it gets really tough.

When I say low, I mean low as in terms of machinery, etc etc, I intend to have a good website, and I know that costs, but I think its a business that will work with out determination and experiance levels in the field

I appreciate what you are saying, we are not trying to do things on the cheap, but thatb was my point if that makes sense

[tony84]

I think that is a really good idea.

The problem i think you have is that the time of people having plenty of left over money is over. People are putting away money rather than spending and this seems to me like it would be 1 of those things where people wouldnt spend.

But i think the idea is good, especially if you can undercut thorntons and actually compete.

[studiowide]

If you look into the emotional psychology of people when they go through a period of recession (I assume that's what you refer to when you say "the time of people having plenty of left over money is over"); firstly there is the feeling of shock, which results in a quick survival and protection mode (bunkering down). This is then escalated to a situation of realisation that "things aren't actually as bad as initially thought and heck I'm due a treat" mode.

This is where all your small purchase items like make up, accessories, DVDs, premium chocolate will all begin to do well me thinks :)


I think that is a really good idea.

The problem i think you have is that the time of people having plenty of left over money is over. People are putting away money rather than spending and this seems to me like it would be 1 of those things where people wouldnt spend.

But i think the idea is good, especially if you can undercut thorntons and actually compete.

[KidsBeeHappy]

Don't try and undercut Thorntons and Hotel Chocolat. You won't win.



It will be hard to convince your customer that they are paying for a luxury exclusive type product when you are cheaper than mass produced Thorntons. (I don't know enough about Hotel Chocolat).

Thorntons have lost that "luxury" feel, mainly because you can now buy them for a fiver in Asda.

Your pricing has to match your branding and your market positioning.

Low price, low quality, or, high price, high quality.

The low price high quality sector and high price low quality sector is where the sellers all slog it out, with no-one ever really winning, because they will always loose customers to those sellers who are either cheaper or sell better quality.

Chocolate is one of the products thats supposed to be recession proof, the treat of some chocolate to compensate for all the other stuff you're not buying or doing.

Personally, I would join up with my local farmers market, and become a member of the local quality fresh local food producers association. There is bound to be one local to you.

Christmas fayres and markets will be good. Also the taste shows, but i guess that most of these will be sold out and expensive.

Good luck
Sandra

[poochieparlour]

I am surprised people here really like the idea, but I am not in saome ways, if that makes sense, I know it could be a good business, and by th sounds of things you do too!

My main concern:

At first we wanted to have a market stall, to generate interest, a brand name and make money, from there we want a shop, no doubts about it. My concern is will people think its tacky from a Market? We are still going to contact hotels, retailers etc though and ofcourse offer free samples

[KidsBeeHappy]

You have to choose the right market. Portobello Yes, Angel No.
Be in with the other foodies.

Our local farmers market consortium do five markets a month, in different towns. All top notch producers, and people make a point of going there to buy. Which is half of the battle.

There is a slow food movement group in Cambridge - have you talked to them.

[poochieparlour]

You have to choose the right market. Portobello Yes, Angel No.
Be in with the other foodies.

Our local farmers market consortium do five markets a month, in different towns. All top notch producers, and people make a point of going there to buy. Which is half of the battle.

There is a slow food movement group in Cambridge - have you talked to them.

Thanks for the advice

We havent told anyone about our project yet, only because we are still in the planning stages if that makes sense, we are working out flavours, moulds, where to sell etc at this moment in time

If you think we are going about this in the worng way, please just let me know

Thanks

[Burden]

I would avoid the market stall side of things if you can, it doesnt really give the luxurious feel that i get the impression you are looking for...if you do you should really pick well and spend a nice bit on kitting the stall out and not just having a table with a banner.

I think the web route is the best way to go and try to get it placed in other retailers stores, dont try to undercut them on your website though or they will just stop stocking you. (im sure you know this already!) offer them enough slice of the pie to make it worth while to promote you and get initial promotions to make them take them on and in turn help them shift them.

I agree with Sandra, Thorntons in Asda, tesco etc makes it just seem like any other bar of chocolate but when you had to buy it only from them directly it felt much more like a luxury and you would make the trip to get a nice gift for someone.

Have you thought about personalised gifts like Thorntons still do, like Valentines with names on and things as these are good times of the year for this market to make some serious money ... including Easter among others.

Also.. do some without fruit, i hate it.. But would love to see how you make it and watch all that happening.. .. Nice milk or white would do me lovely!

with your website you can do things like Videos etc on YouTube which are on your Website/Blog to show its handmade etc, just dont make them tacky!

[KidsBeeHappy]

You could also sell wholesale into the farm shops / resturants etc. Because people buying in those environments are putting quality ahead of price already. It also gets you lots of feedback etc before your get your own shop/market stall, etc.

One pub I know sells little bags of tablet, big basket next to the till, every customer has to go to the till to pay, the waitress doesn't take the money. I watched, at least 3 out of 5 people bought bags of tablet. (They were also being sold at twice the price that Asda sells them!!)

[poochieparlour]

I really appreciate your knowledge here guys, thanks very much!

So, seems pretty clear to me now, that we should really be on par if not more expensive than Thorntons, Hotel Chocolate as we are aiming for the luxury appeal, we dont want to loose that luxury and Niche we are aiming for intitially!

Market stall, seems not the way forward then? I agree Farmers Markets/Hotels/Restaurants are a great idea and something worth looking into!!

Is my opinion that alot of money should be spent on a very good website, where people can order online, the problem I think we migght face is making sure that website is advertised very well.

We had thought of trying retailers such as, John Lewis etc, as then it is still considered at higher standard retailer than say, Asda etc

[KidsBeeHappy]

Ayrshire does this really well, you could fit into a whole network up here;
http://www.ayrshirefoodnetwork.co.uk/
The retailers, resturants and manufacturers all work together. Very much promoting each others products.

http://www.ayrshirefarmersmarket.co.uk/
The farmers market works as a proper business, well organised and marketed.

I used to have a village shop and we became part of this network. I sold in my shop all these lovely wonderful locally produced foods. People came to the shop to buy this stuff - we used to have a waiting list for Jam.

There really is market for quality food, so don't cheapen it to price match the mass producers. If I want crappy malaysian chicken I know to buy smart price at Asda, if I want free range organic, then its £10 at the butchers. One market where price is really seen as an indication of quality is food.

[poochieparlour]

Thanks for those links

What you said makes perfect sense, and I knnow myself people will pay money for good food, and one day I ould like to think people would buy our chocolates because they are of a high quality

Those links are very helpful!

Thanks
Ayrshire does this really well, you could fit into a whole network up here;
http://www.ayrshirefoodnetwork.co.uk/
The retailers, resturants and manufacturers all work together. Very much promoting each others products.

http://www.ayrshirefarmersmarket.co.uk/
The farmers market works as a proper business, well organised and marketed.

I used to have a village shop and we became part of this network. I sold in my shop all these lovely wonderful locally produced foods. People came to the shop to buy this stuff - we used to have a waiting list for Jam.

There really is market for quality food, so don't cheapen it to price match the mass producers. If I want crappy malaysian chicken I know to buy smart price at Asda, if I want free range organic, then its £10 at the butchers. One market where price is really seen as an indication of quality is food.

[KidsBeeHappy]

Thanks for those links


Thanks


Not as helpful if they'd have been for your part of the country!:D
But similar organisations must exist in your locality.

[poochieparlour]

Not as helpful if they'd have been for your part of the country!:D
But similar organisations must exist in your locality.
lol yeah, but its an eye opener is what i was getting at :)
















;

[poochieparlour]

I will show these to my business partner and I am sure he will be as happy as i am, can I ask anyone got ideas on names? Or where I can locate packaging for chocolates from I am hunting around.

Names we have come up with:

Choice Chocolates
Chocolate Season

[papverpoppies]

I am awlays buying 'luxury' chocolates for my friends (usually online) as it is difficult to source shops in Cumbria that specialise in that area. There are the farmers markets etc that come into the City every know and then, but on the whole I use the Internet.

Whilst all of my friends have said the chocolates have been scrummy - we do comment on what people consider to be adequate packaging for an expensive luxery chocolate.

I have to say that as a female shopper the packaging pays a very large part in whether I will buy that product or not (especially when buying as a gift).

I also hate it when they try and charge more for 'luxury wrapping' why not just up the price of the product (after all how would we know)?

So I would say get the packaging as good as the product and you will be onto a winner.

Also have some nice little gift tags make your product different from the rest.

Some ideas for names..

Chocolate Magic
Chocolate Fantasy
Chocolates for ALL seasons...
Chocolate Passion

Good Luck.

Poppy

[SillyJokes]

Good luck to you, I wish you were setting up local to me. The 'chocolate' shop in my town sells fancy chocs stacked behind a glass counter but you can tell they are just bought in mass produced and expensive because you have to pick the ones you put in the box yourself instead of picking them off the shelf in Tesco for £4.99.

Choose a name that will be able to go National later if you are a screaming success also something 'classy'. Didn't Hotel Chocolate used to be called something very dull like Chocs2U?

[ThePublisher]

I know you've decided to move away from the market stalls idea already, but in case you come back to visit this one, can I say that I wouldn't buy chocs made in front of me in a market. The reason being I'm always wondering about whatever airborne cr*p could get into the food.

Where I live there is a stall outside the local Tesco selling nuts and yogurt dipped raisins etc, all in open baskets, where all and sundry are walking past, and lots of the stuff is at fairly low levels. Whilst people have to dig in with scoops to select what they want to buy, I dread to think what dust and germs could be on the products.

[mke]

We do all wish you a speedy recovery from your neuroses, ThePublisher. During the period it takes please do let the kids out. It helps them to build their natural immune defences, build their social skills and gives them the benefit of natural sunlight, of which I am led to believe there are many.

[papverpoppies]

Living in Cumbria we have very little resource to things being made out on the street ie markets vendors - apart from hamburger stalls and the likes.

On visiting a friend in Greenwich I was hooked on the street market way of life - and I made a point of visiting every day.

Home made smoothies as you stood and waited...roasted peanuts, hand made choccies fresh from the melting pot. I could go on and on.

Then yesterday I went into my local City and the Continental Market was on.

WOW..they really do do things differently and what an atmosphere even in the afternoon.

Hot scrumptious food all being cooked as you stood and ordered, hot mulled wines, marshmallows being dipped in scrummy toppings - and everyone was partaking - it really had a wonderful relaxed atmosphere!

So long as people can see your stall is clean (and you do not lick the untensils) or worse! what is the problem?

I always think the more open you are with your preperation the better. Go behind some of the restaurants (even the fancy ones) that is where you will get the delly belly from!

Poppy

[OfficeHounds]

Maybe you could call your business Seasons Chocolates (or Season Chocolates.) It would highlight your USP of using fresh fruit that's in season. Just a thought. . . You'd then have a simple theme for your marketing campaign depending on the season.

Maybe keep the packaging simple and environmentally friendly to tie in with in season fruit.

[OfficeHounds]

Oops! I just saw that you were thinking of Chocolate Season. Sorry!

[mke]

How about "Chocliments Of The Season"?

[poochieparlour]

I am liking the ideas and point of views!

I have to talk the the other chef involved, the chocolates are his speciality but wants to go in business with me 50/50 so I am doing as much backgorund information as I can

Seems the majority of people wouldnt buy what are called "luxury" chocs from a market stall, so our original market plan might have to be scrapped and we start again.

What about box sizes?

We were thinking of different size boxes and even bigger ones for Easter, Valentines, Mothers day etc etc, so plenty to think about!

[mke]

Ferrerrerrerrerrer Roche or whatever they call themselves have a point here. Over priced mass produced but separate themselves from the crowd by having the little four choc "treats" up to reasonably large trays and overdo the packaging to make themselves "selective". Well, huge looking to me but then I don't buy them.

You could have specially wrapped or packaged singles if they're that special. Be very very careful to choose your market and go for it. If you get it right in the exclusive niche, premium pricing is your norm and presentation is everything. Slightly lower down and it matters but not as much but you sell more and make your money that way. And so on.

[vvaannmmaann]

You will of course need a USP to stand out from all others doing chocs.What will that be?

[poochieparlour]

Well, we are hoping the Unique selling points would be

1. We are chefs - one of which is a 2 Michelin Star standard
2. The chocolates are Hand-Made, not batch produced
3. We wold be using ONLY seasonal ingredients
4. We can make certain flavours to order, deepening on requests

[vvaannmmaann]

Have you been watching the channel 4 doc about the chocolate guy?
Not normally my type of thing,but I found it very interesting.They showed him meeting the choc buyer for Waitrose.Waitrose are offered dozens of new chocs every month.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/5090233/Easter-2009-Is-London-now-the-world-capital-of-chocolate.html

And then I saw this!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/5141003/Easter-2009-Why-posh-chocolate-is-recession-proof.html

[poochieparlour]

Thanks for those links

Have seen the chocolate show advertised actually, but not been at home to watch it yet, will have to watch it soon though, looks good

Is interesting that GOOD chocoloates are recession proof, and even on the news it said cambridge is least affected by the recession too, so now could be an ideal time if we do things right!