Accountant - do you charge for silly things?

[ThePerfectOffice]

Hi,
I have in front of me an invoice from my accountant for £8. Not much I know but I have a bit of a principle issue with this. Can I ask if any of you would charge for this.

I have asked for a breakdown of this invoice & received this reply:

1. Time spent dealing with your email of 3 March together
with my reply email of that day. Work in progress on
3 March was £3.

2. 12 minutes spent dealing with your collecting 1 cardboard box and 3 lever arch files at 11.00 on 4 March together with preparation of appropriate file note. Cumulative work in progress to 4 March £8.

3. You have been invoiced for the £8.

No1 refers to an e-mail I sent to him asking when would be suitable to collect the files his reply was simply '11.00 should be fine'

No2 refers to the collection of said files and I have no recollection of a file note. Nothing of any depth was discussed regarding my accounts.

I fully expect for another invoice to be added relating to my e-mail query regarding this invoice.

Obviously I'm not happy. I am unable to pick up the phone at any time to query anything without it creating a fee. Is this normal?

I spend about £1500 to £2000 a year with him.

Thanks,
Steve

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

I think he's missed out:

£3 - time spent visiting the lavatory to expel coffee drank whilst replying to your email
£1 - said cup of coffee

[Zeno]

Highly unusual in this day & age. (In fact, at any time).

I wonder if he has some automated WIP/billing system that generates this drivel automatically? Or a very enthusiastic admin. assistant?

You should see about getting another accountant who lives in the real world.

[ThePerfectOffice]

He's a one man band and his billing system is a handwritten diary.

No coffee, no loo usage :D

[dp0848]

No is the short answer. We charge for work done on a clients instructions not for reading emails etc. I think things like this are a quick way to p**s of clients and shrink the size of your client list.

David.

[Zeno]

Maybe he originally trained as a lawyer?

[CassioAcc]

No, I charge a fixed fee which covers all the admin. Forces me to be more efficient.

[Alison Jones]

I can understand an accountant charging if a client sends an email with several questions relating to their accounts and the accountant has to get all the accounts paperwork and reply to all the questions but not for sorting out a time for collection of books.

Also with the collection of books if it is local should not be charging, if they have to drive 50 miles to collect books can understand them charging for it.

Alison

[Maslins]

Most one man band type accountants won't have a formal charge out rate and time keeping method, so this wouldn't happen. They'd obviously keep a rough idea of how long your job took, and if it was way longer than anticipated they may try to renegotiate the fee for the year after, but I didn't think any would actually send a bill for a token e-mail.

Bigger firms do tend to charge for 6 minute increments, but charging and billing are not the same thing. The admin involved in raising an £8 bill would make it clearly not worthwhile. So they probably would make a note of something like that, but it would sit on their records until a bigger piece of work was done. If that was your accounts with an agreed £2k fee, then it would likely be absorbed into that (ie not specifically billed).

[ThePerfectOffice]

re Collecting the books; I collected the books from his premises.

[UKSEOAgency]

If it was me - id move accountants!

If I was like that, i could make a fortune off a couple of my clients I speak to 4-5 times a week for 20 minutes a go!

However i believe in customer service keeps your business running in the long term!

Next he will be charging you for the cost of the calls he makes to you on his phone on top of the time taken of his! In fact - dont give him the idea!

[Jenni384]

As others have said, if it's a traditional firm I can well believe it.
And it's ludicrous, outrageous, outdated etc etc.

Depending on what your requiremens are £2k sounds potentially on the high side (it might not be, but it might be) so coupled with this and the stupid invoice, unless you really love your accountant and you feel s/he really looks after you well, I would look to move.

Fixed fees are becoming the norm, and you'd only get charged above and beyond the fee if something came up that was outside the scope of what was originally discussed, and this should always be made clear to you as soon as it was noticed.

Charging for you turning up at his office to collect your books? As someone else said, a surefire way to start p**sing off your clients.

[Blackberry]

where possible we agree fixed fees with clients which encompasses all work and admin to be done.

Otherwise we only bill clients for 'special' work i.e. work that doesn't fit into their usual requirements

[TheAccountancyOffice]

:mad: That is truly shocking!!

£2K seems quite high for accountants fees, but without knowing your business, it's difficult to say.

Personally, I'd be inclined to shop around and get some fixed fee quotes from other accountants to see how your current accountant stacks up.

[RobertG]

Absolutely rediculous. We agree a fixed fee to cover all that we agree to do for a year and that is it. We have had several new clients from daft accountants who do that. One large engineering firm came to us when they got the hump after their accountant took them to lunch and billed them for the time!

[ThePerfectOffice]

Thanks all. Interesting to note everyone suggesting I'm paying far too much. It's not a huge business with thousands of small value sales. It's a smallish business with fewer higher value sales. All the bookkeeping's done prior to submitting it to the accountant. The only addition is my self assessment. Time to get some fixed price quotes methinks.

[CassioAcc]

Very good idea

[stewartsetter]

We will only every quote fixed prices. I personally don't like timed work. Quote a price, bugger that price up and take longer, perhaps drive to the shop to get some folders or pick up some books from your client... so what... I say keep your customers happy, don't shock them and you won't find them sharing your invoice descriptions on a forum.... one thing I learned coming from industry to private practice... there's a lot of us and we are all looking for business.

[maxine]

As others have said, if it's a traditional firm I can well believe it.
And it's ludicrous, outrageous, outdated etc etc.

Depending on what your requiremens are £2k sounds potentially on the high side (it might not be, but it might be) so coupled with this and the stupid invoice, unless you really love your accountant and you feel s/he really looks after you well, I would look to move.

Fixed fees are becoming the norm, and you'd only get charged above and beyond the fee if something came up that was outside the scope of what was originally discussed, and this should always be made clear to you as soon as it was noticed.

Charging for you turning up at his office to collect your books? As someone else said, a surefire way to start p**sing off your clients.

... agree with Jenni. I do quite a bit of telemarketing for accountants and I would get laughed at down the phone these days if I had to explain/sell this kind of charging structure (most people will ask this straight away).

Most of the accountants that I work with are offering fixed pricing structures. Some have got some very good deals on at the moment as technology has enabled them to streamline a lot of things and offer good value for money so with that said and the fact that he is using a handwritten diary system, sounds like you are paying over the odds for inefficiency :)

[cmcp]

My accountant once showed me new software he got for recording timekeeping and billing. He pulled up that weeks emails from me as an example, as if I was meant to be impressed.

[Jenni384]

My accountant once showed me new software he got for recording timekeeping and billing. He pulled up that weeks emails from me as an example, as if I was meant to be impressed.
hahahahahaha :D
Thanks for the chuckle :cool:

[Zeno]

I came close to billing a client for dry cleaning after their wee brat threw up on my suit.

Why they insisted on bringing the little monster everytime they came to see me I'll never know.

[thevaliant]

2. 12 minutes spent dealing with your collecting 1 cardboard box and 3 lever arch files at 11.00 on 4 March together with preparation of appropriate file note. Cumulative work in progress to 4 March £8.

As an aside, he charges at £25 per hour therefore. Not a lot considering some of the other charge out rates I've seen for qualified accountants (assuming he is qualified).

[miketombs]

I once had a bill from a solicitor which included disbursements for the postage sending me his bill - at least it showed foresight I suppose, since he won't have posted it until after he billed it ;)

We work on fixed fees agreed in advance and would never dream of charging for bits and pieces like the items in the OP.

[Alison Jones]

As an aside, he charges at £25 per hour therefore. Not a lot considering some of the other charge out rates I've seen for qualified accountants (assuming he is qualified).


£25 an hour is cheap for an accountant because bookkeeper hourly rates upper range in some areas is £20 per hour possibly £25 an hour in London. At £25 an hour maybe he is not an accountant but a bookkeeper.

Alison

[Zeno]

£25 an hour is cheap for an accountant because bookkeeper hourly rates upper range in some areas is £20 per hour possibly £25 an hour in London. At £25 an hour maybe he is not an accountant but a bookkeeper.

Alison

More likely to be a restricted rate for non-accounting work rather than a reflection of his actual hourly charge out rate.

[Alpha]

Actually the most important aspect is 'Is he providing you with a good service'?.

If the answer is yes then perhaps you could simply sit down with him and discuss his charging regime (Make sure in advance he doesn't charge you for the time:D)

Also did he outlined the basis for his charges when he provided you with his quotation/engagement letter?

Then if all else fails and you are not satisfied you can look for another accountant.:)

[Tom McClelland]

Absolutely rediculous. We agree a fixed fee to cover all that we agree to do for a year and that is it. We have had several new clients from daft accountants who do that. One large engineering firm came to us when they got the hump after their accountant took them to lunch and billed them for the time!

I recall reading a story in the paper fairly recently about a lawyer who was having an affair with one of his clients, and who billed her for the afternoons that they spent in hotel bedrooms together. :D

Now THAT is chutzpah.

[Dawg]

It took a fair amount of chutzpah for the female solicitor to take it to court, given her name (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5062032/Married-barrister-had-affair-with-client---and-charged-her-250-an-hour-.html).

[stewartsetter]

That's entrepreneurial !!!

[deniser]

We had £60 postage and copying charges on our invoice which I found a bit much for sending one letter with draft accounts to us and one copy to the IR (we send the other one to Companies House ourselves).

I will also be asking for a breakdown!

[dp0848]

I'm going to invoice everyone who has posted on this thread £20 each for the time its taken me to read through all the posts. :D

[CassioAcc]

I'm going to invoice everyone who has posted on this thread £20 each for the time its taken me to read through all the posts. :D

Is that including or excluding postage?:D

[estwig]

Hi,
I have in front of me an invoice from my accountant for £8. Not much I know but I have a bit of a principle issue with this. Can I ask if any of you would charge for this.

I have asked for a breakdown of this invoice & received this reply:

1. Time spent dealing with your email of 3 March together
with my reply email of that day. Work in progress on
3 March was £3.

2. 12 minutes spent dealing with your collecting 1 cardboard box and 3 lever arch files at 11.00 on 4 March together with preparation of appropriate file note. Cumulative work in progress to 4 March £8.

3. You have been invoiced for the £8.

No1 refers to an e-mail I sent to him asking when would be suitable to collect the files his reply was simply '11.00 should be fine'

No2 refers to the collection of said files and I have no recollection of a file note. Nothing of any depth was discussed regarding my accounts.

I fully expect for another invoice to be added relating to my e-mail query regarding this invoice.

Obviously I'm not happy. I am unable to pick up the phone at any time to query anything without it creating a fee. Is this normal?

I spend about £1500 to £2000 a year with him.

Thanks,
Steve

LOL, I think you have proper p*ssed off your bean counter.

Might time to find a new one!!

:)

[estwig]

My legal people charge for time spent 'pondering'

So the brief phones me up last week and says 'I was stuck in traffic on the M25 the other day and thinking about your case'

The cheeky fooker is charging me for sitting in traffic!!!!!!!

What can you do????

:)

[Zeno]

What can you do????

Lots of things but most of them illegal.

Just be glad he wasn't on the toliet...

[KateCB]

It feels like a solicitor time billing system - never had an accountant charge this way, its the first I have heard of it - I think I would be sending him a cheque for £10.00 - the extra £2.00 would be to pay for his time to read your letter that fires him!

If my accountant charged me for every email to him/that he dealt withfor me I would be bankrupt - ours usually calls in with a packet of biscuits and a demand for coffee to go with them!

[KateCB]

ps - we pay £475 pa, we prepare accounts etc, do the VAT - our accoutant does the P&L/Balance sheet stuff from the information we give him (From MYOB software, so just a case of tidying up really I guess - mind you it usuallt ake a couple of weeks to tidy it up!) and provides copies for us, companies house and Inland Revenue, sends them off, does the self assessments for us, answers emails (!) calls in for coffee, chats etc.......Chartered Accountant too!

[dp0848]

ps - we pay £475 pa, we prepare accounts etc, do the VAT - our accoutant does the P&L/Balance sheet stuff from the information we give him (From MYOB software, so just a case of tidying up really I guess - mind you it usuallt ake a couple of weeks to tidy it up!) and provides copies for us, companies house and Inland Revenue, sends them off, does the self assessments for us, answers emails (!) calls in for coffee, chats etc.......Chartered Accountant too!

That's a good price and can be achieved by your accountant as it sounds like your bookkeeping is near perfect and you have a fairly simple business. The fees start to escalate when you get clients who think their bookkeeping is good but it turns out to be far from good and when they structure of the business becomes more complex.

David.

[Tiffany]

At least he is honest....but without much tact!

All the larger accountancy firms I have dealt with do keep meticulous time records......all staff filling in a detailed time sheet every week .....showing clients they have worked on and time spent (in some cases right down to a minute....rather than in blocks of say 15 mins).

Every so often they will print of a time and costs analysis and raise invoices to clients. These will absorb all the time spent on photocopying, emails, phone calls and travelling to the clients - but you will probably find that this type of cost will be rolled up in one and lost within what is described as the annual audit fee, accounts preparation, payroll etc etc.

So although you will have been billed for this.....you may not actually have it drawn to your attention in the way you have!!

My guess is that if you chat this through with your accountant he may well give you a credit. At the end of the day you have to look at the overall picture.......whether you are happy dealing with him, whether there have been any problems with the accounts or tax info he has submitted to the Revenue on your behalf, and whether the £2000 is reasonable to you.

I'm sure if you asked for a fixed fee quote he would oblige. It may also be worth getting some quotes from other accountants just for your own peace of mind.......as to whether the £2K is about right for your business.

[MyAccountantOnline]

[quote=Tiffany;836341]All the larger accountancy firms I have dealt with do keep meticulous time records......all staff filling in a detailed time sheet every week .....showing clients they have worked on and time spent (in some cases right down to a minute....rather than in blocks of say 15 mins).
quote]

I do indeed recall the days many, many years ago when I used to have to fill out a timesheet working for a large firm, and whilst the firm may keep meticulous records try asking the staff how accurate they were!

It is almost impossible to accurately write up a record of time spent in 6 minute units for an average day.

I later recall having to do the bills as a Partners Assistant - all clients got charged 2 units (ie 12 minutes @ £125 ph) for a ''file review'' ie drawing up the bill!

Needless to say in my practice we charge fixed fees.

[Alison Jones]

I had a job as a trainee in an accountants firm when I first started work. Had to fill out timesheets and remember the bosses were upset one day when the police evacuated the building for a bomb scare and all the staff had non chargable time on the time sheets for that week.

Alison

[lucy*tenable]

Sorry i can't stop laughing..........Did you get charged for the stamp also? And the energy it took to draw up in the invoice and heaven forbid to actually post it :|

[dp0848]

Sorry i can't stop laughing..........Did you get charged for the stamp also? And the energy it took to draw up in the invoice and heaven forbid to actually post it :|

We charge mileage to the post box as well. :D:D

[lucy*tenable]

We charge mileage to the post box as well. :D

I believe it after hearing that :p

[hlsps]

Wow, I am so undercharging my Accountant!! He is one of my Clients and has referred several Clients to me, as we are friends as well I find that I have at least one phone call a day with him over something work related, at least one email if not more and seem to do a lot of "little" things for him I never charge for. To me that is just part of the service, part of what I think of as the "added value" or aftersales service.

I would suggest where to shove his invoice to you but I am sure he would then invoice you for having it removed surgically!

I am sorry you found such a penny pinching accountant but can I say thank you cos it made me laugh when I read it!!

Now what else can I think of to charge for.....................

[yorkshirejames]

Obviously I'm not happy. I am unable to pick up the phone at any time to query anything without it creating a fee. Is this normal?

I spend about £1500 to £2000 a year with him.

No way! This is actually out of order in my opinion. If you are literally collecting a file then thats not even chargeable time. If you pay it, then take round bags of coppers.

[Jenni384]

If you pay it, then take round bags of coppers.

I like this :D

[David Griffiths]

If you pay it, then take round bags of coppers.


Why - are you expecting a breach of the peace? :p Surely one copper could sort that out? ;)

[Lasting Designs]

And if you are leaving, take the final payment round to them in coppers in a wheelbarrow, minus the cost of said wheelbarrow. Make sure its a mixture of 1p's and 2p's well mixed with the odd cent thrown in too! Don't forget the recipt though :D

PS and don't forget to bend one or two to jamb their counting machine :)