immoral? illegal??

[emonkey]

So, I happen to come across a list of email addresses online. These people all work in the niche market that my company caters for. Of a market of about 30,000, this list has 3000 addresses.

Would it be immoral or illegal for me to email these addresses with a bit of super-directed marketing? I do not have their permission to do this but their addresses are freely available on an open website.

Your views on this please.

[khalid1]

If you are buying this list or it is free to download then chances are the people have "opted-in" to receive promotional emails or the creator of the list has got them somehow.

I wouldn't use it, most are probably dead hotmail accounts etc. You could give it a go though.

[emonkey]

It's not an 'opt in' group, it's basically a members only forum where users have added their addresses to a list for networking purposes I guess.

[movietub]

Costs nothing so why not?

Spam email isn't that annoying now its so easy to nominate a sender as 'trash'.

I would place a line in the email requesting people to notify you if they suspect their details have been farmed without permission.

In real terms all you have done is the equivalent of seeing a large group of potential customers gathered in one place and walked over with your business card! They didn't ask for you to interrupt them but you won't get locked up for taking the punt.

Definitely one of those times when you could say its not entirely 'moral' because you don't know the list is complied with permission but realistically nothing bad will come of it and possibly some good will.


EDIT - just read your last post, it sounds like this will come under the heading of networking so long as what you offer is highly relevant to the average member. Just be polite and probably a good idea to state how you got their email address to demonstrate you have actually read the forum and made an intelligent decision to target them.

[emonkey]

Thanks folks. As I have nothing to lose from this, I will give it a go.

[directmarketingadvice]

So, I happen to come across a list of email addresses online. These people all work in the niche market that my company caters for. Of a market of about 30,000, this list has 3000 addresses.

Would it be immoral or illegal for me to email these addresses with a bit of super-directed marketing? I do not have their permission to do this but their addresses are freely available on an open website.

Your views on this please.

If your email was on that list, how would you like to be treated?

Steve

[movietub]

If your email was on that list, how would you like to be treated?

Steve

Just another thought...

I would of course love to never receive any email I didn't directly encourage to be sent to me but then today (after being away) I cleared out a 100+ emails and it only took me a few moments.

So I would say that it depend how likely you are to be contacting mostly the right people who may be interested in what you do. Which it sounds like you will.

The point being that the combined fleeting unhappiness of 100 people who receive the email is not equal to your happiness if just one in each 100 finds it useful and makes contact.

However if you send 10k emails a day and only get a call once a fortnight then you would, in my eyes, be a real spammer and cannot justify sending out so much vaguely targeted mail for something that clearly isn't wanted anyway.

[emonkey]

If your email was on that list, how would you like to be treated?

Steve

Personally I wouldn't mind because it is bringing to my attention a product that I will probably be interested in. Certainly I'd take a look if not buy it.

I think it's best not do produce a hard-sell email, just a summary of what we do and a link to our site so they can take a further look if interested. The last thing I want to do is annoy them.

[movietub]

Personally I wouldn't mind because it is bringing to my attention a product that I will probably be interested in. Certainly I'd take a look if not buy it.

I think it's best not do produce a hard-sell email, just a summary of what we do and a link to our site so they can take a further look if interested. The last thing I want to do is annoy them.

It wouldn't annoy me.

I'm especially likely to read an email if the subject line makes clear why I might be interested.

For example if you offered office supply managers cheaper toner and you were willing to beat any other price then that would be of extreme interest and should be immediately obvious.

[silvermusic]

Would it be immoral or illegal for me to email these addresses with a bit of super-directed marketing? I do not have their permission to do this but their addresses are freely available on an open website.


A word of warning. Before you send out 3000 spam emails, perhaps you should read your ISP and/or domain hosts acceptable user policy. I can guarantee it will have a clause in that specifically warns against doing this. You might discover one morning you have no internet access.

In the past I've managed to get people's accounts shut down for doing just this sort of thing. None of these people have specifically opted in to an email list of yours, therefore anything you send them is spam.

As for the old "it's only an email" line, well some of us are actively fighting back. Last week I week I was getting 6-700 junk emails a day, which was actually interfering with business, it works out to about one every two minutes 24/7.

Email is a service I pay for, not a free marketing source for every Tom, Dick or Harry that "thinks it's only an email".

[movietub]

A word of warning. Before you send out 3000 spam emails, perhaps you should read your ISP and/or domain hosts acceptable user policy. I can guarantee it will have a clause in that specifically warns against doing this. You might discover one morning you have no internet access.

In the past I've managed to get people's accounts shut down for doing just this sort of thing. None of these people have specifically opted in to an email list of yours, therefore anything you send them is spam.

As for the old "it's only an email" line, well some of us are actively fighting back. Last week I week I was getting 6-700 junk emails a day, which was actually interfering with business, it works out to about one every two minutes 24/7.

Email is a service I pay for, not a free marketing source for every Tom, Dick or Harry that "thinks it's only an email".

How does that stack up against getting junk mail dropped to your physical mailbox? Do the leaflet droppers get banned from using the road in future?

It must be annoying to get spammed every 2 mins but don't you use a trash filter? It's unlikely you receive that much spam from people who have targeted you as highly likely to be interested - which is what we are discussing in this case.

[directmarketingadvice]

How does that stack up against getting junk mail dropped to your physical mailbox? Do the leaflet droppers get banned from using the road in future?

No, because there's no law against it.

However, there are laws that place restrictions on sending bulk email to people that haven't opted-in.

So, although you may see these things as equivalent - and I can understand why - the law doesn't. And, we're expected to obey the law rather than picking and choosing which laws we agree with.

Steve

[Dwebs-Ltd]

So, I happen to come across a list of email addresses online. These people all work in the niche market that my company caters for. Of a market of about 30,000, this list has 3000 addresses.

Would it be immoral or illegal for me to email these addresses with a bit of super-directed marketing? I do not have their permission to do this but their addresses are freely available on an open website.

Your views on this please.

If the users didn't give permission to receive email from you or have their addresses sold, it would be classed as SPAM.

[movietub]

No, because there's no law against it.

However, there are laws that place restrictions on sending bulk email to people that haven't opted-in.

So, although you may see these things as equivalent - and I can understand why - the law doesn't. And, we're expected to obey the law rather than picking and choosing which laws we agree with.

Steve

Fair comment.

Does the law (spamming laws) actually restrict you from sending out large numbers of emails to lists that you find publicly (for example on the forum in question) if the emails you send are related to the subject matter of the site on which the list is published?

I would have thought that my knowingly being part of this 'networking mail list' permission for topical emails has effectively been given. And if this was presented to the courts as spamming a strong case could be made that is is likely that the emails were of use to several people therefore it is not against the public interest to have sent them.

In truth I don't know the definitions of the laws that exist but this sounds justifiable and surely there comes a point that well targeted promo mail is not spam anymore.

[movietub]

To be more clear - if you join a public mailing list is it in any way illegal for another public viewer/member of that site to contact you? For whatever reason? Or having made your email address PD have you made your bed...

[silvermusic]

How does that stack up against getting junk mail dropped to your physical mailbox? Do the leaflet droppers get banned from using the road in future?.

It's entirely different. I don't pay for that, I do however pay for my email service and bandwidth. Besides which it's useful shreaded for packaging material, and for what it's worth I live so far out in the sticks that we don't get leaflet droppers.

It must be annoying to get spammed every 2 mins but don't you use a trash filter? It's unlikely you receive that much spam from people who have targeted you as highly likely to be interested - which is what we are discussing in this case.

It's junk I don't want, any of it, is it really that hard to comprehend? I'm sure every one of them thinks there's is targeted marketing that I would be interested in, WRONG!. Unless it's business or personal contacts, or places I've opted in to recieve email, then it's spam. No filtering system is perfect, trust me I've tried them, losing one vital business email is one too many, I have filtering sure, and check the spam folder at least once a day, though it's a task I shouldn't need to be doing in an ideal world.

Would I buy anything from any company that thinks it's OK to spam me, the simple answer is no. Neither will i buy from any company that automatically assumes that any purchase makes it OK to add me to thier mailing list. If you don't have an opt out of marketing email policy during the sales proccess, then a sale will go to one of you conpetitors. I run my business in exactly the same way, if you don't opt in you'll never hear from me again which the exception of a dispatch email containing the sale details.

[movietub]

Silver music,

I get what your saying - I really do.

I think that its important however not to bulk all types of sales email as 'spam'. There is a vast difference between the companies that send out 20 emails a month selling pens just because 3 years ago you once bought some pens online to a proper clear offer of something you might find useful or at least interesting to read.

If someone does their research and compiles a list of publicly available email addresses, goes onto a forum and works out what people want and figures that they can provide it well then that's a worthy amount of effort in my opinion.

[Maslins]

movietub, I think what you are sending is spam, I know you are trying to convince yourself otherwise, but it is spam.

I think the main reason it's not illegal to do it by post is that if someone were to send out dozens of mailshots by post, every day, to the same people, they would quickly go out of business due to the postage costs. E-mails don't have that problem.

[movietub]

movietub, I think what you are sending is spam, I know you are trying to convince yourself otherwise, but it is spam.

I think the main reason it's not illegal to do it by post is that if someone were to send out dozens of mailshots by post, every day, to the same people, they would quickly go out of business due to the postage costs. E-mails don't have that problem.

What am I sending? I have never sent any sales email to anyone, doubt I ever will. Are you confusing me with the OP?

That would be an example of assuming I was relevant to your comments rather than researching my actual involvement in this thread - the type of spamming I disagree with.

[silvermusic]

Silver music,

I get what your saying - I really do.

I think that its important however not to bulk all types of sales email as 'spam'. There is a vast difference between the companies that send out 20 emails a month selling pens just because 3 years ago you once bought some pens online to a proper clear offer of something you might find useful or at least interesting to read..

Sorry, but I disagree, they're exactly the same. As I've already mentioned i wont buy anything online from any company that doesn't give me an opt out of marketing email during the sales proccess. Therfore it is all unwelcome at best, annoying, and a sure fire certainty that I won't be dealing with them.

If someone does their research and compiles a list of publicly available email addresses, goes onto a forum and works out what people want and figures that they can provide it well then that's a worthy amount of effort in my opinion.

Define "publicly available email addresses"? none of what you're suggesting is actually legal. I'm sure some of those whose entire business revolves around collecting email addresses think that anything is fair game in their opinion. They only know what they can read on the net about someone and make assumptions. There's many that do little more than harvest addresses from an area and assume people would be interested in their junk. I've not even touched on the subject of those that trade lists of unknown origin between themselves. These are the parasites who's fault it is that we get the real trash, some of it bordering on pornographic.

[Maslins]

What am I sending? I have never sent any sales email to anyone, doubt I ever will. Are you confusing me with the OP?

That would be an example of assuming I was relevant to your comments rather than researching my actual involvement in this thread - the type of spamming I disagree with.

Apologies movietub. I did read the whole thread from the beginning but mixed it up as you made the last few posts effectively defending it. Sorry :redface:

[movietub]

Apologies movietub. I did read the whole thread from the beginning but mixed it up as you made the last few posts effectively defending it. Sorry :redface:

No problem! :D

[directmarketingadvice]

I think the main reason it's not illegal to do it by post is that if someone were to send out dozens of mailshots by post, every day, to the same people, they would quickly go out of business due to the postage costs. E-mails don't have that problem.

I think that's a good point. Quality control & relevance are built into direct mail because there's a cost for each letter.

Maybe the OP should ask himself the following question: if, instead of email addresses, you found an excel file with these people's snail mail addresses, would you have mailed them?

If not, why not?

Steve

[movietub]

Define "publicly available email addresses"? none of what you're suggesting is actually legal. I'm sure some of those whose entire business revolves around collecting email addresses think that anything is fair game in their opinion. They only know what they can read on the net about someone and make assumptions. There's many that do little more than harvest addresses from an area and assume people would be interested in their junk. I've not even touched on the subject of those that trade lists of unknown origin between themselves. These are the parasites who's fault it is that we get the real trash, some of it bordering on pornographic.

It comes down to what is a forgivable amount of intrusion dependent on the likelihood of your mail being of use to the majority. EDIT: Because its always better to have a layered approach than a simple black and white, right and wrong approach.

It sounds like this mailing list is actually a list put together by the site these people are members of (presumably with their permission or at least their full knowledge if its used for networking on the site) and if the OP can provide something that is currently in demand on said site then its excusable as networking - if we assume no one networks in business circles simply to increase their social contacts.

I think Steve just raised a very good point. Given that snail mail presents a cost people are generally more responsible about quality and quantity of advertising mail they send.

If the OP would pay the going rate to send mail to the same list of peoples physical mailbox then the same mail should be acceptable over the net.

[emonkey]

I think that's a good point. Quality control & relevance are built into direct mail because there's a cost for each letter.

Maybe the OP should ask himself the following question: if, instead of email addresses, you found an excel file with these people's snail mail addresses, would you have mailed them?
If not, why not?
Steve

I actually have snail mailed and leafletted about half the market previous to this. The email addresses I have got, are part of the rest of the market that I have not approached yet.

The email addresses are of people who have actively searched for, found and joined a forum specificially because they want to dissemenate information between them. My product is the kind of thing they would share anyway.

Hoewever I do realise that this can be regarded as spam and I know that some of the people will be annoyed about this approach, however I know that several will purchase the product because of the approach and several others will enquire about us further.

I appreciate all the arguements for and against that this post has created and I can now weigh up the options and consequences of doing so. Cheers.

[movietub]

Silver music and Steve are both right in general that spam is annoying. Overall I would normally side with them.

But this is a business forum and the bottom line is this sounds excusable enough to try. If you get a negative response then you know never to try it again. It certainly doesn't sound like your about to become a full time spammer.

You run a business and if this is an unusual but potentially good opportunity for you then as always, you should judge the risks involved and give it a punt if the rewards are sufficient.

You should also revisit this thread with an update - which is probably more useful than anything we can say now.

[cmcp]

Your views on this please.

I was under the impression unsolicited email was illegal. (Electronic Communications Act 2003)

It certainly is immoral and annoying in my opinion.

[GreatSEO]

Would it not be better posting these questions on the forum in particular?

Dave

[Top Hat]

It's spam and I think it would harm your reputaion with your target market.

Don't do it

[Pemdebtcollection]

Overall 99% of direct email marketing is treated as spam, however if I receive industry related emails I do have a look and then delete nearly all of them. problem is, one if my best contacts and products came by this method so its a pain reading most but it is worth it. I guess its like sky TV loads of rubbish with a few gems here and there.
if you have 3000 contacts you will get a reply and some business, if you follow up with a phone call you will get some more as long as you are good on the phone and can sell yourself.
Most wont reply
but the margin will make it worth it.

[cmcp]

Especially if your target market is public authorities.

Even if your comfortable with the fact you'd be breaking the law and generally conducting bad practice by spamming, if this is anything to do with the schools / local authority service you mentioned in previous posts I'd take Top Hats advice and stay clear.

[movietub]

Overall 99% of direct email marketing is treated as spam, however if I receive industry related emails I do have a look and then delete nearly all of them. problem is, one if my best contacts and products came by this method so its a pain reading most but it is worth it.

That was my reason to side with the OP on this occasion. I have made a few useful contacts through sales email. One in particular who I have spent many more hours working with than I have had to spend sifting through the junk mail in my inbox!

If all sales mail was highly relevant it would not be a bad way of keeping on top of new developments from the public domain rather than company specific RSS feeds and such.

[Pemdebtcollection]

Thats true, public sectors generally dont need to trawl through spam on the look out for a good product or service with the attitude of an entranapeur.

Direct marketing done well business to business can be good in the private sector.

local authorities take time to do business with and often you win business by having a good reputation and being referred. Direct email wont work at all well with councils etc

[david8765]

If it was me getting the E-Mail and it was relevant to my business I'd be fine with it. WhenI think of Spam or Junk E-Mails I think of E-Mails that are of no relevance to me or the industry I am in.

[silvermusic]

The email addresses are of people who have actively searched for, found and joined a forum specificially because they want to dissemenate information between them. My product is the kind of thing they would share anyway.


That actually sounds like some quasi-legal mumbo jumbo quote from somewhere to try and justify what you're proposing to do. :)

Hoewever I do realise that this can be regarded as spam and I know that some of the people will be annoyed about this approach, however I know that several will purchase the product because of the approach and several others will enquire about us further.

Again the same thing, "regarded as spam",etc. It is spam, it's against the law and certainly doesn't put your company in a good light. You're at serious risk of alienating more people than you stand to gain by such a tactic.

And be warned, as I've pointed out earlier, you stand a very real risk of getting dumped by your ISP's. More so now than ever before they're getting very active in removing accounts that send out bulk spam emails. It only takes a couple of reports from those that recieve such emails. :)