Graduate becoming a Bookkeeper

[JacobJames]

Hi all,

I have recently graduated in Law with an ordinary degree. I also have a Diploma in Business Administration and have studied Accounting modules and Finance modules. I now want to become a bookkeeper and would like to ask some questions.

1. With my basic knowledge of accounting and finance from studying, is it enough for me to study Sage 50/ or computerised accounting systems at college and then apply for bookkeeping jobs?

2. Would I stand a better chance of employment if I registered with 'The Institute of Chartered Bookkeepers' than simply studying Sage 50 at college?

3. As I do not have any bookkeeping work experience, will I be able to apply for jobs having only educational experience, or will I need some work experience such as voluntary work experience?

Basically, I am looking for a sound path to take that will enable me, step by step, to become a bookkeeper. I see many bookkeeper and pay clerk jobs advertised that require bookkeeping experience and knowledge of Sage 50 and I would like to know where to start.

I will appreciate your advice.

Thank you,

James

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Have a search on here as they have been loads of posts abut setting up as a bookkeeper.


I think it must be some new fashion trend :p

[NCA]

I would suggest you do the AAT course and exams http://www.aat.org.uk/. That way you will be able to prove you have some fundemental understanding of bookkeeping and accounting. If you have studied it previously then it should be very easy.

[Alison Jones]

I would say if you want to get a full time job, most employers look for AAT.

If you want to become a self employed bookkeeper ICB have a good support basis for people wanting to set up, once you have passed level 2 exam you get access to a jobs database - some of them are full time jobs and others part time for freelancers. You get to use institute logo, and there is advice on their website for new bookkeeping business.

Alison

[Blackberry]

Nothing beats practical experience, so try and get yourself a training contract witha firm of accountants or possibly with a local bookkeeping firm.

Your only problem is that many accountancy firms would see you as being over qualified to undertake basic bookkeeping qualifications or AAT - they usually send school / college leavers on these courses. Being a graduate they would expect you to go for either ACA or ACCA. Both are excellent qualifications but would over qualify you for most bookkeeping roles.

Best have a proper think about what you want to do in the long term i.e. purely bookkeeping or accounst and tax work too and then you'll know which qualifications and type of training contract to aim for

[Alison Jones]

I don't see any harm if someone does AAT then wants to become an accountant. I have met a few different accountants during the time of running my bookkeeping business and these accountants did not understand/know some very basic bookkeeping and were telling me how to do the bookkeeping wrong, I told my client that if I do it the accountants way that it would be incorrect, they listened to accountant so had to do things wrong.

Accountants starting from the basics of bookkeeping and working there way up to ACCA is not a bad thing, makes them a more thorough accountant.

Alison

[Blackberry]

There is no harm in someone doing AAT and then either ACA or ACCA no.

But you are doing two courses and effectively taking twice as long to get to the same position.

Not to mention the fact that you'd be on a training contract with a lower salary and benefits for twice as long!!

To suggest that accountants dont know the fundamentals of bookkeeping is wrong. All qualifications start at the right place - with the basics

[Alison Jones]

To suggest that accountants dont know the fundamentals of bookkeeping is wrong. All qualifications start at the right place - with the basics[/quote]

I did not say that all accountants don't know the fundamentals of bookkeeping, in the 2 and half years I have been running my bookkeeping company I have had 2 different accountants not know the basics, instructing me to carry out the bookkeeping incorrectly, client listened to accountants, so client made me do bookkeeping wrong on the accountants say so, that I was doing it wrong out of duress and that it was their decision to do this incorrectly.

Alison

[Williams lester]

I did not say that all accountants don't know the fundamentals of bookkeeping, in the 2 and half years I have been running my bookkeeping company I have had 2 different accountants not know the basics, instructing me to carry out the bookkeeping incorrectly, client listened to accountants, so client made me do bookkeeping wrong on the accountants say so, that I was doing it wrong out of duress and that it was their decision to do this incorrectly.

Alison

What did they ask you to do which was incorrect?

[Alison Jones]

What did they ask you to do which was incorrect?

When I took on client, bank recs had not been done for over 2 years, only some of the payments posted so many invoices outstanding on the supplier ledger that were not really outstanding, only some of the customer payments posted. So purchase ledger and sales ledger incorrect, accountant said no point spending time reconciling, he made me post a journal to the bank account to make it balance with the bank statement, not taking into account that the supplier ledgers and customer ledgers would be wrong.

Alison

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Accountants starting from the basics of bookkeeping and working there way up to ACCA is not a bad thing, makes them a more thorough accountant.

Alison

For ICAEW that is how we start!

Can I ask how many accountants is a few please?

Some times mistakes do get made. Hopefully not to often. However I kind of object to us all being tarred with the same brush.

Generally I think generalisations are used far too much :):rolleyes:

[JacobJames]

Wow, lots of information, thank you very much.

It does appear however that we have went off in a tangent, talking about good and bad accountants and whether they know the fundamentals of bookkeeping.

It looks like the best place for me to start is to register with AAT. As I have no working experience of accounting and with the current economic climate, I feel my chances are slim with regard to finding a job as a trainee accountant with so many up and coming graduate accountants at the moment.

I have not ruled out becoming an accountant in the future, but for the meantime I would like to test the water in this field and begin with bookkeeping, as there is a healthy demand for bookkeepers in my area. After some time I could then go on to ACA or ACCA, or should I skip AAT and go straight on to ACA or ACCA? With regard to being overqualified I'm not sure, I have no issues with working my way up, with all respect to bookkeepers, and we seem to be living in a climate at the moment where the situation is you're either over qualified or don't have enough experience.

To sum up, unless more opportunities exist than I know of, bookkeeping seems the best place for me to start, I should register with AAT then go for either ACA or ACCA.

How does this sound?

[KidsBeeHappy]

Hi


With your experience there is an opportunity for you which is better paid than the average book-keeper, and will probably ensure you have a job your whole life; Train to be a Legal Cashier.

I know from experience that solicitors offices struggle to find a clerk that actually understands the ins and outs partic with the distinction between clients accounts and firms accounts. I used to audit some solicititors and they had a high turnover of completely crap clerks, and accounting records that resembled a complete dogs breakfast.

Legal cashiers tend to get paid more than a standard book-keeper, and from my experience I can tell you that any solicitors with a good legal cashier do all they can to keep them.

[Blackberry]

If you want to be an accountant eventually it makes sense to start on either ACA or ACCA now....whats the point of spending extra time doing an additional qualfication? you'll be on a training wage (and these arent great!) for twice as long.

You might not get in a training place with a big 4 firm but there are plenty of small firms who take on trainees for these exams - go for one of these and you'll get the real grass roots experience you need and also the higher level qualification. Just contact your local firms to see who is offeringtraining contracts.

[Alison Jones]

For ICAEW that is how we start!

Can I ask how many accountants is a few please?

Some times mistakes do get made. Hopefully not to often. However I kind of object to us all being tarred with the same brush.

Generally I think generalisations are used far too much :):rolleyes:


In 2 and 1/2 years in my business there were 2 maybe 3.

In a social group I am a member, the social group hired a firm of accountants (not cheap by any means) for many a year, they started getting lazy and from the quality of the accounts assuming they must have got a junior to do the work without anyone checking it or were just very poor as they maybe had lost interest over the years and just could not be bothered, the final year we used them the accounts were rejected at the AGM as they had no relevance to the books of the social group. These accounts were redone by myself and audited by two other members who were volunteers. The accountants never refunded the money (even though letters were written to the accountants explaining that the accounts had no relevance to the books and that they were rejected at the AGM.

I never said that all accountants were like this, just if someone new to the accounting world, maybe without any experience or qualifications, if they study from the basics and work up they will become more thorough accountants.

Alison

[Zeno]

The accountants never refunded the money (even though letters were written to the accountants explaining that the accounts had no relevance to the books and that they were rejected at the AGM.

Sorry to the OP for hijacking but:-

Could you explain what you mean by no relevance to the books?

[Blackberry]

When I took on client, bank recs had not been done for over 2 years, only some of the payments posted so many invoices outstanding on the supplier ledger that were not really outstanding, only some of the customer payments posted. So purchase ledger and sales ledger incorrect, accountant said no point spending time reconciling, he made me post a journal to the bank account to make it balance with the bank statement, not taking into account that the supplier ledgers and customer ledgers would be wrong.

Alison

Is this really that bad? I would say that this is making the most of a bad job and getting to a good starting point to make things right for the future.

There is no point wasting time going back over previous years accounts that would have been filed and presumably accepted by companies house or HMRC.

There is no fee for redoing previous years accounts (would you pay twice?) - your in business to make money after all

[Alison Jones]

Sorry to the OP for hijacking but:-

Could you explain what you mean by no relevance to the books?

It was completely made up. None of the entries in the accounts married up to the entries in sage books.

Also computers that had already been fully depreciated in previous years, came back at the value of the purchase from many years before.

They were not worth the paper the accounts were printed on.

Alison

[Alison Jones]

[quote=Blackberry;816114]Is this really that bad? I would say that this is making the most of a bad job and getting to a good starting point to make things right for the future.

There is no point wasting time going back over previous years accounts that would have been filed and presumably accepted by companies house or HMRC.

Going forward meant that the client did not have a clue which purchase invoices were outstanding (as many payments had not been posted on), also more importantly did not know which customer invoices were outstanding because not all customer payments had been posted. At the point the accountant made me do that journal I was already a good part through getting the system right so his journal made things worse.

Alison

[KidsBeeHappy]

Is this really that bad? I would say that this is making the most of a bad job and getting to a good starting point to make things right for the future.

There is no point wasting time going back over previous years accounts that would have been filed and presumably accepted by companies house or HMRC.

There is no fee for redoing previous years accounts (would you pay twice?) - your in business to make money after all


You do this work when they get a tax investigation - and then that way you do get paid for it :rolleyes:

[Blackberry]

[quote=Blackberry;816114]Is this really that bad? I would say that this is making the most of a bad job and getting to a good starting point to make things right for the future.

There is no point wasting time going back over previous years accounts that would have been filed and presumably accepted by companies house or HMRC.

Going forward meant that the client did not have a clue which purchase invoices were outstanding (as many payments had not been posted on), also more importantly did not know which customer invoices were outstanding because not all customer payments had been posted. At the point the accountant made me do that journal I was already a good part through getting the system right so his journal made things worse.

Alison

Surely the client had supplier statements they could use to identify creditors? I don't think I have any clients who do not have a rough estimate in their minds of what they owe to others.

Like wise I have NO clients who do not know what is owed to them. regardless of having sight of invoices etc they know who they have worked for and who has paid them.

Sorry to disagree with you but i think the accountants approach was spot on

[Alison Jones]

Like wise I have NO clients who do not know what is owed to them. regardless of having sight of invoices etc they know who they have worked for and who has paid them.

In this situation it was a mess. On the customer side one of the staff was allocating payments, never put an amount in the payment box on sage, was just clicking pay in full, many times got finger happy so there were some invoices marked as paid that were not. Some customer payments not posted at all.

On the supplier side client had a habit of writing cheques out, putting in various desk drawers or random folders and forgetting about them, cheque book obviously had cheque stub, but cheque not gone anywhere, have skipped bank rec like the accountant wanted meant this was not picked up on.

Alison

[Trainee_Tax_Guru]

I graduated in Jun 08. Despite having 2 years' part time work experience in accountancy practice and a first class degree, it is proving very tough in this economic condition to get a trainee contract. I applied for about 40-50 jobs online so far and 90% of the time I did not get any replies (which is the most annoying thing considering the amount of time I waste writing personalised covering letters and CVs). I had 3 interviews arranged by agencies. On all 3 interviews, I was the second runner up. :mad: . I prefer to work for small practices. So I never applied for any of the big 4 and I regret this decision so much now.


It is surprising that small or medium sized practices do not care much about academic prizes and scholarships which took me a lot of dedication to achieve. I am in a situation where I am preparing to pay £150+ to some professional CV writer to give me some feedbacks on my CV.


My advice to OP would be to keep on looking for jobs and start doing ACCA or ACA. You are not alone. It is extremely difficult to get into accountancy.

[Zeno]

It is surprising that small or medium sized practices do not care much about academic prizes and scholarships which took me a lot of dedication to achieve

Welcome to the real world. Sorry if this sounds flippant but academic achievement does not necessarily translate into the work place.

[Williams lester]

It is surprising that small or medium sized practices do not care much about academic prizes and scholarships which took me a lot of dedication to achieve.

Totally agree with Zeno on this one, I would prefer to take on a non graduate and train them in tax and accountancy whilst they do AAT or ACCA.

[JacobJames]

Legal Cashier? It sounds interesting and relevant, I had not thought about that before. What are the best paths into this line of work? Are there any entry requirements?


I must say, with all my respect, I am a little confused by all those who are hijacking this forum. If one of you started a new post with a suitable heading then the valuable information arising from your debate may be found by others who require it, it is missing it full potentiality of usage in this forum.

Thank you.

[KidsBeeHappy]

I graduated in Jun 08. Despite having 2 years' part time work experience in accountancy practice and a first class degree, it is proving very tough in this economic condition to get a trainee contract.


It is surprising that small or medium sized practices do not care much about academic prizes and scholarships which took me a lot of dedication to achieve.

No personal offence meant here. So please don't take any.

When I was at university, the general consensus is that employers don't want people with first class degrees. Intelligence alone is not sufficient to get a first class degree, it also requires a level of committment etc to your studies beyond anything that most normal students would be prepared to give.

In the real world, being able to do the tasks of your job is only part of your employment. You need to be able to communicate well with colleagues and clients, you need to have flexibility, you need to have a sense of humour and a personality that fits in with the rest of the office. You need, in short, to be less blinkered.

Maybe, trainee tax guru, it's this side of your CV and your applications that you need to look at.

[Zeno]

I must say, with all my respect, I am a little confused by all those who are hijacking this forum. If one of you started a new post with a suitable heading then the valuable information arising from your debate may be found by others who require it, it is missing it full potentiality of usage in this forum.

That's just us off at tangents. We get like that some times.

Your just lucky we did not get started on which institute is better...

[JacobJames]

Haha, now you are frightening me! Don't start a debate over the best institute unless it is strictly relevant!

I am currently looking for training courses in the legal cashiers field. I have come across The Institute of Legal Cahiers and Ifpro in my searches. Are there any other courses that I may consider?

[Alison Jones]

That's just us off at tangents. We get like that some times.

Your just lucky we did not get started on which institute is better...


There have been many discussions about which institute is better.

Alison

[Zeno]

There have been many discussions about which institute is better.

Alison

Not for a while and hopefully never again....

[Jenni384]

There have been many discussions about which institute is better.

Alison
And they are all tedious! :rolleyes:

To the OP, I agree that with a degree you are perhaps overqualified for bookkeeping and being supported through training with an employer.

As someone else said, decide if it's bookkeeping you want to do, or accounts/tax, or possibly management accounts. Do you want to work for someone forever (you'll have to start working for someone either way) or do you want to run your own business eventually?

AAT is an excellent qualification - it's more than adequate for bookkeeping, and it's perfectly fine for general accountancy and taxation too.
ACA/ACCA/CIMA are of course the top chartered qualifications and this is where an employer may sponsor you.
ICB/IAB fine for bookkeeping only, but AAT will do the same and give you the scope for much more if that's what you want.

Disclaimer: I'm AAT ;)

[Alison Jones]

Not for a while and hopefully never again....


You missed the one the other day then.

it started off about MLR (and the bodies that mean you do not need to register with HMRC)

and ended in debates about which body is best ICB or IAB. Got a little heated to say the least.

Alison

[KidsBeeHappy]

There is a whole other institute for legal cashiers :D

Here is their link; http://www.ilca.org.uk/

All i can say is that they are well respected within the legal world. And it opens up your skills and your CV rather than shutting it down. I bet many firms of solicitors would love to have a cashier that actually understands the law as well as book-keeping.

I also know that most of the heavyweight weekend papers always have advertisments for legal cashiers in the back of their recruitment sections.