A question about web-development

[AM]

Hi all.
What do you think about idea: to organize web-outsorcing... I mean to be a link between clients of UK for example and developers living somewhere in China, India or post-soviet country. It would be cheaper in comparison with local developers... How do you say - is it possible (with present-day level of communication) to make relation enough good to take into account all client's wishes?

[Rob Holmes]

You would need a good rapport with the UK user and better rapport with the person who is working for you!

In principal it doesn't matter where the supply is so long as it's good - but in practice will it work??

Have you tried it at all?

If so what are the upsides and downsides?

Rob

[annethedonn]

I outsource some of our web design in the UK and globally. I find India a good source of IT professionals and very cost effective!

[Eagle]

Good idea. I'll take it.

[AM]

Sorry - I didn't want to post the same two times... But it happend and I couldn't delete one (this)!

[AM]

Hi all again!
Thanks for replies. Your attention and advice is always needed!
Dear Rob, I haven't tried it at all yet. And your question about will it work in practice is very actual for me too... :-) Good rapport must be so indeed!
We know it isn't a new idea! Dear annethedonn proved that. Thus good luck, Eagle! ;-) But perhaps you already have many competitors...
My feature is presence of well-known friends who can produce sites in Ukrain and Russia - so this idea has logically appeared... I have some doubt only will it work and is it possible to organize a stable business. :roll:

[Rob Holmes]

AM

If you PM me some examples with prices, timescales etc when you get them I'll certainly be willing give you an opportunity to quote for some of our business.

Rob

[Eagle]

Lol - just pointing out that it's not always a great idea to mention 'new' venture's on the intarweb. ;)

[AM]

8)
Dear Matrixx, I cannot give you any examples with prices and timescales etc because we're speaking about indefenite site... My main question sounds like: would you order web-site to a developer you do not see personally? Payment is by the stage and first you see what is made and only then give money, during development you're communicating with agent only. Would you do it? Prices will be considerably below average...

[Whistle Ink]

Its a great idea outsourcing, but I think as well as having the technical ability there has to be an eye for design - and this is where I think its better to stick to home!

I have seen a few indian design companies who have great technically sound websites and can do everything you want it to do - but design wise the websites dont grab you. I maybe wrong but Im saying this of the ones I have seen, and they ARE some good ones.

Also how will the client communicate with the designer? Via email? MSN? Having a go between would do my head in.

If you get web design cheaper by using someone in India, will you pass on these savings to the customers? or keep prices same as those 'near by' and rake in more profit? Not that theres anything wrong with that!

[Webstuff]

Post this question in a web-design forum so you can get added to a book of "ways to make yourself unpopular" :P I hope you won't be charging too much less - the web-design business seems to have settled at a fair rate recently, and charging noteably less will, as with any other business, both harm local enterprises and doesn't benifit those who recieve the lower-payed work. If you look at a lot of web-design forums you will notice people from the sort of countries you have mentioned charging the same sort of prices as all other web-developers, which (in my opinion) is the way to do things. I used to do some PHP coding for a Ukraine company that had done very well for itself, by charging normal prices and working well with its customers...

(Sorry to go a little off-topic, but thats my two pence (like two cents but worth twice as much!).)

[Whistle Ink]

Hi,

I have just talked to someone from an Indian web design company - their logo portfolio wasnt that bad actually - but the price was. He said a simple logo would cost £125 GBP, which I think is alot esp for start up businesses and the fact that he cahrge in pounds means hes making a fortune!

Its not worth it I think - stick to the local talent!

[qledge]

It is always important for any successful website to perfect the "look and feel" factor.

When outsourcing your business thousand of miles away, am not so sure about total control of the creative process.

If the profit margin is high enough, then maybe it would be worth the effort.

QLedge. http://www.qledge.com

[gary]

I've used web designers in India before (not for the Tie Warehouse site though) and generally it's been very good, both for me and the client. You have to get the right one though as there's a lot of dross out there, just as there is in the UK.

[Eagle]

Hi,

I have just talked to someone from an Indian web design company - their logo portfolio wasnt that bad actually - but the price was. He said a simple logo would cost £125 GBP, which I think is alot esp for start up businesses and the fact that he cahrge in pounds means hes making a fortune!

Its not worth it I think - stick to the local talent!
For logo design, the going 'industry rate' a for a business start up is between £1000 and £3000.

Some charge more, some charge less, depending on things like overheads, availability... and what nice guys they are! ;) ;) ;)

[Whistle Ink]

Some are REALLY good in the UK! I can't beleive that some would charge 1000 - 3000 quid! maybe if you were a multinational company then 3000 on a logo wouldnt seem so bad, but a small start up or even a small sized firm wouldn't be able to afford that much money.

Branding is important and I have experienced some good logo designers who do it at very affordable prices. :wink:

I think the best way to pick a good logo designer is to look at their portfolio and then look at the price and if you're really cheeky tell them what your budget is.

[Eagle]

I seem to remember, the logo commisioned for the Millenium Dome was £50,000....

David beckham's logo (http://www.press.adidas.com/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-16/94_read-1318/), by Eric Vellozzi cost more than twice that if I recall correctly.

Back to the everyday world, logo design for large multinationals can command fees of between £2,500 and £10,000 (fairly old figures there too).

'You guys' just don't know the real value of design... ;)

[Whistle Ink]

Good design is important but so is affordability. And I suppose it depends on what it is eventually going tobe used for. Some companies may want to just have some visual at the top of their letterhead and just want 'a' logo.

But others may want to use it everywhere like, addidas and nike etc - so its more important that extra research and thought process goes in to a logo that is going to be sold rather just simply used for the sake of it.

Your logos are very good Eagle :wink:

[Webstuff]

Wasn't it about £3,000,000 for the BBC's logo makeover? The one where they changed the background colour? Worth it in my opinion ;)

[Eagle]

*
And people moan about paying well under a grand... :roll:

[epiphany]

Some new Edinburgh tourist logo was 100 grand and it would have literally taken me 5 minutes to recreate. I am a believer in charging for how long something took rather than what sounds right at the time :) It's fair enough charging a big company a lot if the logo is going to get them more business; but charging a small business a lot just isn't going to get a logo designer the clients they need to survive. Small business don't have that kind of spare cash, well not the ones I deal with anyway :) £125 is certainly below the average price I see companies charge.

[Eagle]

Some new Edinburgh tourist logo was 100 grand and it would have literally taken me 5 minutes to recreate.
Are you quite sure about that? :) I'm sure web design is incredibly easy too! :P

...I am a believer in charging for how long something took rather than what sounds right at the time :)
I can't comment on how you chose to work and price your services but I'm a believer in charging for not only my time but my skills, extensive experience and the quality of service and design I offer. The actual size of the business doesn't matter either - I've quoted known millionaires the same as I would a home business start up... It's all a question of value, regardless of ability to pay.

...It's fair enough charging a big company a lot if the logo is going to get them more business; but charging a small business a lot just isn't going to get a logo designer the clients they need to survive.
That depends on the talents of the individual doesn't it?... ;) It's not a case though of charging "a lot". Businesses must realise that establishing a credible identity (http://www.eagleimagery.co.uk/logo.asp) is of paramount importance these days - and it's especially important for new businesses, who often compete for trade from the word go and on the world stage (the internet). You said yourself in another thread that the design appearance of a website is (consciously or otherwise) of major importance to browsing customers - so why should that not apply to a logo? Do you see web 'design' as more important (and commanding a higher monetary value) than a logo? I certainly see differently! :)

...Small business don't have that kind of spare cash, well not the ones I deal with anyway :)
Perhaps it's naiveity and/or ignorance on their part but design (and subsequent marketing) should always be budgeted for in the business plan right from the outset.

Why do new business owners often baulk at the price of design I wonder?... Perhaps it's because of the all-too common misconception that we just "press a button and it happens".

Skimping on identity is just asking for trouble later on down the line.

Cheers! Interesting discussion. :)

[Rob Holmes]

We work things out on a combination of the amount of money our skills (above others) will make our customers and the time it takes to do!

Rob

[epiphany]

Eagle :) I love it when people quote me like that :wink: I can tell you are an old time forum abuser like myself :P

All I will say to you is that if I was a business in need of a logo I would be willing to pay a premium for your logo design skills :)

From the point of view of a web designer who does logos; logos are often a stepping stone to web design work. Quoting low on logos is a good way to get people in the door :)

[Eagle]

:wink: :D

[Webstuff]

can you overdose on smilies?

[Srivvy]

I think another problem can be the language barrier.

I have seen many sites produced by foreign developers that although technically good, just dont have a natural feel to the language.

You could end up with a lot of rewriting to do afterwards.

Also, if you were to get into an argument about payments etc, it would be a lot more stressful conducting it internationally.

[Webstuff]

Also theres the "after sales service", which is one of the most important "buzz-phrases" nowadays; if your customer needs information, origional files, etc, can they talk to the origional designer again?

[epiphany]

I find the thing clients like most about the service I provide is the fact I can speak to them and deal with something immediately. I personally hate having a service provided through a third party. After sales is a perfect example of this and a direct client to designer relation ship helps makes the whole process feel more immediate to the client. That makes them feel more integrated in the design process which isn't every ones cup of tea :)

[Richard Conyard]

A good few years ago I was doing liasion between our development company in the UK and our Indian offshoot. I found that the Indian programmers were highly skilled and hard working. The one problem I did find was the distance and correct communication of ideas. Every last thing had to be nailed down to stop days being wasted by the developers going forward with what they thought was needed.

One for larger projects me thinks, smaller projects can't afford the administration overhead.

[nickkis]

Just a thought.. I've only seen India mentioned. There are a lot of very highly skilled set-ups in the likes of the Ukraine, Romania etc.

Worked for over 3 years with such a company and never had any problems.

[Webstuff]

I think I mentioned Ukraine; I did some PHP work for a Ukraine webdesign company a while ago, and they charge normal prices for their webdesign. Lets not let webdesign go the way of call-centres ;) (under-paid un-interested staff, who don't really know what their company does).

[AM]

Hi all again!
Such a discussion was born while I was on leave...
Thank you for all replies! Smart people really can give useful advice.
How do you think, can anyone enterprising simply find clients here and a cheap web-developer somewhere abroad (via internet for example) or such thing as a long reliable friendship with the last one is really needed?

[manav]

Hi,
I would like to have a detailed conversation of the kind of projects you have. If possible plz send me a reply at manavghosh@yahoo.com
Currently I'm working as a software developer in a reputed IT company in India. I mostly work in dot net framework using C# as my core programming language.
Hope we can make some business possible.
regards,
Manav Ghosh